Ok.

We are in Iraq, Iran will possibly have nuclear weapons within the next two years, and it is possible N Korea could be fairly close if not already there. We are distracted in Iraq, so what do we do?

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT CUT AND RUN OR BUSH'S POLICY ON IRAQ OR WHETHER OR NOT IT IS AN ILLEGAL WAR! Instead I want to hear what you think about what can be done with the current situation we HAVE to live with.

bhayne

There are alot worse out there. Next time she comes home with an Iranian national wearing a turbin (who longs to see his family back in Iran and quotes foreign words from the Karan everytime he gets mad), you'll probably change your mind!!

Morganite

Iranians do not wear the turban. Muslims wear a skull cap, rather like the Jewish yamulkah. You are confusing them with Sikhs from Punjab in India!

That's whats wrong with America when it comes to other nations and cultures, hardly anyone knows diddley squat about them. Like the American who shot the Sikh garage proprietor in Phoenix after 9-11 because he thought he was an Arab. He wasn't a terrrorit, he wasn't an Arab, but he is still dead through abysmal ignorance and prejudice.

The Koran is writen and read in Arabic, and there are no words in there that can hurt you any more than someone quoting words from the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament can hurt you whether the quoter is mad or not.

I'd rather my daughters marry decent Arabs than some of the wild men from the extreme conservative right wing militants who string up naked children and flog them, or who murder doctors and nurses and think they are doing God's will.


M

bhayne

I don't believe what you say about the Koran. Doesn't the Koran introduce this Alla character?
I see videos of terrorist with English sub-titles, "Kill infidels, in the name of Alla" and they are holding a Koran. That's a strong message!!

tre_cani

[SIZE=2]You'd prefer your daughter marry a decent Arab rather than "[/SIZE][SIZE=2]some of the wild men from the extreme conservative right wing militants who string up naked children and flog them, or who murder doctors and nurses and think they are doing God's will[/SIZE][SIZE=3]." [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]It appears you're assuming that most Americans (specifically conservatives) are of the far extreme. The killer of the Sikh man is NOT a fair representation of our country's average citizen. Nor are the "right-wing militants who string up naked children and flog them" (Huh? where'd you get that?) or the radical pro-lifers (I assume that was the group to which you refer), just as Muslim extremists are not a good representation of the average Muslim person. That's why they're called extremists. Common sense tells a reasonable person that these people are not part of the majority.

[/SIZE][SIZE=2]You're no different than those you accuse of prejudice and profiling.
[/SIZE]

Morganite

If you will read what I wrote more carefully, you will see that I did not apply any characteristics to all Americans, only to some. I made that plain enough so that a wayfaring man though a fool need not err therein. What I wrote is accurate. I did not characterise ALL Americans as extremists, as you charge. I am surprised that you are unaware of the baptists Child Abuses that made the headlines a couple or so years ago! Perhaps the following article will refresh your memory. It is taken from the site "religioustolerance":

Most conservative Christian sources which discuss the "rod" in Proverbs imply that it is a wooden stick of some sort which a parent should use to hit a misbehaving child, causing them pain, and thereby discipline them.


~ Dennis Rupert, pastor of New Life Community Church in Stafford, VA, writes:

"Proverbs 23:13-14..... show that the rod WAS for beating. The shepherd usually used a staff, not a rod, for rescuing, guiding, and creating a boundary for the sheep. The shepherd used the rod for beating (if not always sheep, then enemies of the sheep). Both are necessary in the life of sheep and both are necessary in our lives. Just like Psalm 23:4 says, 'your rod AND your staff, they comfort me'."

"There are people who see any physical affliction as brutality. I'm not of that camp and I think that is more the spirit of the age, than Biblical thinking. Even in the New Testament, God sees the discipline of parents as a worthy method which 'produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it' (Hebrews 12:7-11)."

~ GotQuestions.org answers a visitor's question:

" Question: "How should Christians discipline their children? What does the Bible say?" Their response is:

"The rod in the Bible is a reed-like stick. Proverbs 23:13-14 does in fact promote physical discipline. 'Don't fail to correct your children. They won't die if you spank them. Physical discipline may well save them from death' (NLT version). There are also other verses that support physical correction (Proverbs 13:24, 22:15, 20:30).

The Bible strongly stresses the importance of discipline; it is something we must all have to be productive people and is much easier learned when we are younger. Children who aren't disciplined grow up rebellious, have no respect for authority, and as a result obviously won't be readily willing to obey and follow God." 3

"Tim" at Grace & Truth Ministries writes:

"God COMMANDS us to spank with an implement in Proverbs 23:13-14...The promise from God is that if we do 'beat him with a rod' we will deliver his soul from hell. What a wonderful reward for obedience to the Lord in this area!...The Bible says use a 'rod', and God has His reasons for commanding that we use a rod. It is better to use a rod than one's hand because God says use a rod. You can run to psychology or to a wrong interpretation of the Scripture, but both paths are sadly a means of you yourself rebelling against God and His clear Words." 5

~ Charles Gleason writes:

"The most important consideration must be God's point of view, as revealed in the scriptures. The verses pertaining to the rod of correction are actually COMMANDS of God, to parents of unruly children....Even without the biblical endorsement, spanking has a very established background in the history and tradition of the family unit. Even many of our young adults of our day, can remember grandmother or grandfather using some form of 'the rod of correction' upon their buttocks. (even if their parents did not)....Schoolteachers, guardians, and even neighbors, thought nothing of paddling a rude or naughty child in times past. While this non-parental spanking policy may be subject to many different opinions in our day and time, it was a common sight in our recent past." 6

~ According to the StopTheRod.net web site, Clyde and Twyla Bullock once manufactured, advertised, and sold "The Rod," shown here, to whip children. According to the San Francisco Chronicle, the rod is a "22-inch, $5 white nylon whipping stick... Named after the biblical 'rod of correction,' the Rod provides 'a faith-based way to discipline children ... and train them as Christians,' [Twyla] Bullock explains."

The rod's designer, Clyde Bullocks is a Southern Baptist. This design appears to be his interpretation of the "rod" mentioned in the book of Proverbs. Their advertisement read: "Spoons are for cooking. Belts are for holding up pants. Hands are for loving. RODS are for chastening." It refers to the rod as "the means prescribed by God," citing Proverbs 23:13-14: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." 7,8,9


Jay and Jessica Wigley wrote:

"Proverbs is a book of poetry -- figurative language. Considering just that, I'd say that the rod mentioned in Proverbs is a figurative rod, not a literal one."

That is, when Proverbs 22:15 says "The rod and rebuke give wisdom..." it is referring to the "rod of correction," meaning non-violent methods of correction and teaching a child. As proof of her interpretation, she quotes Proverbs 23:13: "...if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die." Over 1,000 children die each year in the U.S. as a result of corporal punishment. If "beatest him with the rod" really means to beat a child with a rod, then the Bible would be lying. But the Bible is the Word of God and does not lie. Thus, the passage must be referring to a non physical correction with a figurative rod. 10

~ Joanrenae also comments God's promise in Proverbs 23:13. She notes that Exodus 21:20 discusses a situation in which a man must be punished if he beats his male or female slave that he owns to death with a rod.

... So many Christians have taken FIVE verses and hung a whole child rearing philosophy on them! Parents are told to use this as a primary form of punishment (what these experts refer to as discipline). Some use the words "punishment" and "discipline" interchangeably when they mean two entirely different things. These people are basing their theology on nothing more than the traditions of men!" 11

Some Christians interpret the Proverbs' passages as referring to a wooden stick used to beat a child. However, they reject the passages as representing very poor advice that dates from a violent period of biblical history.


~ Susan Lawrence of Arlington, MA, a homeschooling Lutheran mother, was distressed to see an advertisement for a child discipline tool called "The Rod" in a Christian homeschooling magazine.
<img src=http://www.religioustolerance.org/rod.jpg>

Interviewed on Beliefnet, she said:

"There are about five verses in Proverbs that do speak of beating your son with a rod, and also in Proverbs they speak of beating fools on the back, and that kind of thing. There’s a lot of punishment in the Old Testament. If you read the whole thing, there are floggings and stonings and all kinds of harsh punishments."

When asked about Proverbs 23:13's statement: "...if you beat him with a rod he will not die. Beat him with a rod and you will save him from the grave," Lawrence said:

"It’s a lie, because children who are beaten with a rod sometimes do die. Between one and two thousand children die every year in this country from corporal punishment. One hundred forty-two thousand are seriously injured from corporal punishment every year in America, according to the Dept. of Health and Human Services and the New England Journal of Medicine. So it can’t be taken literally." 11


See the Boston Globe article:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...ng_tools_sale/

Morganite

www.corpun.com : Archive : 2001 : US Domestic Mar 2001

Atlanta Journal-Constitution, GA, 18 March 2001

Authorities are investigating a massive case of alleged abuse by parents of as many as 60 children from the same northwest Atlanta church. Already, state social workers have removed 19 children from the homes of three members of the House of Prayer, 1194 Hollywood Road. Another church member said Friday evening that social workers had indicated they soon would take 11 of his children. Atlanta police and social workers are looking into reports that church members systematically held down their children while beating them with belts and other objects - allegedly under the direction of the pastor, the Rev. Arthur Allen.

A 7-year-old boy told detectives that his uncle whipped him with a "big switch" at the church while three other men held him down, according to a police report. The beating left him with bruises on his abdomen and back, the boy said.

A 10-year-old boy told police that an adult beat him on his back at the church as another adult held his arms and two men held his legs. The boy said that Allen, the pastor, was "watching and telling them when to stop," according to the police report.

Allen said children from the congregation have been beaten at church, at school and in their homes. He said he tells parents to restrain their children "so that they would not hit the child in any vital spots to hurt the child." Church members said the punishment is appropriate. "We don't overly abuse our children," said Tabitha Houston, 18, who was married two years ago with what she described as Allen's "approval."

Atlanta Journal-Constitution, GA, 21 March 2001
Atlanta police on Tuesday arrested a pastor and five members of his church while social workers took custody of 22 more children, alleging they ran the risk of being abused.

The pastor and four members of the House of Prayer were charged with cruelty to children for the beating of two boys, ages 7 and 10. Another church member was charged with battery and reckless conduct.

[SIZE="5"]The older boy had open wounds on his stomach and right side, said Atlanta police Lt. Elizabeth Propes, commander of the youth crimes unit. The younger boy had welts on his stomach and back. The boys told police they were held down at church and beaten with sticks, switches and a belt.

[/SIZE]

Atlanta Journal-Constitution, GA, 22 March 2001
Minister has prior conviction for beating
He's released from jail in latest case

[SIZE="5"]The Rev. Arthur Allen Jr., was sent to jail in 1993 after ordering members of his church to beat a 16-year-old girl with belts and then taunting the bleeding girl when she cried. Now, the pastor of the House of Prayer church in northwest Atlanta is at the center of a massive abuse investigation that has led to the removal of 41 children from their parents' homes.

"He stood over me and said, 'I had you whining like a baby,' " the girl, Ivory Johnson, testified during a 1993 trial in DeKalb County State Court.

Allen admitted in court that he ordered the August 1992 beating - which he said may have lasted from 20 to 30 minutes. The beating continued, he testified, until the girl was "beaten into submission." The teenager had defied his authority, Allen said, and she "had to be beaten, or she would take over the church."
[/SIZE]

[SIZE="6"]Children being punished were suspended in the air by their hands and arms and beaten with switches, sticks or belts, Dean said. Photographs shown to the parents in court showed welts that Dean said were between 1 and 3 inches long, including one she described as the shape of a belt buckle. [/SIZE]

"I've really been painted a monster," Allen says. Allen hasn't found universal validation for his views, not only on disciplining children but also on other church matters, including his approving marriages for girls as young as 14. He has received little sympathy from state social services officials, who blame him for ordering systematic beatings with switches and belts that, in some cases, left welts and abrasions. And he has gotten little support from other ministers, even some who think the government may have overreacted in its mass seizing of so many church members' children.

[SIZE="5"]Atlanta Journal-Constitution, GA, 23 March 2001
'They'd beat them for every simple little thing they'd do'
Michael Pearson
Atlanta Journal-Constitution Staff Writer
[/SIZE]

"I get nervous just talking about it," says 19-year-old Jason Bates, who says he and his sisters were beaten mercilessly until their mother took them out of the House of Prayer. Jason Bates doesn't go to church anymore. The church of his childhood was a place for fear, not a house of prayer. It was a place to be plucked from sleep for a whipping, for watching helplessly as his sisters' dresses were lifted to reveal their young bodies for a beating.

"They'd sometimes have kids back there lined up" for whippings, Bates said. "They'd beat them for every simple little thing they'd do."

[SIZE="5"]His sister Joanna Bates said she was beaten when she was 12 after Allen accused her of being a prostitute. She protested being exposed to the congregation after the preacher lifted up her dress to spank her. " 'You're used to men seeing you,' " she quoted Allen as telling her. Linda Bates took several of her children out of the church after Allen prohibited her from visiting Jason in the hospital after he suffered severe injuries in a fire.
[/SIZE]
"It was like a cult. He controlled everything," she said of Allen.

Follow-up: 1 April 2001: Discipline or abuse? Church renews spanking debate

Atlanta Journal-Constitution, GA, 26 March 2001
Reader responses
Corporal punishment
Kids get bad message

In response to Frederick Zak's defense of corporal punishment ("Corporal punishment part of black American culture" Viewpoints, March 23): I disagree completely with his presumption that a little physical punishment produces a better citizen. Physical punishment simply sends the message that violence is an acceptable response to a situation. Nonviolent responses, such as restricting privileges, are a much better societal example. Second, violent punishment enforces behavior by associating bad actions with fear of further violence. Once you remove the fear (as an adult) there is no barrier to the behavior. Contrast this with the instilling of values: A bad behavior is avoided because it is bad, not because you might be hurt if caught doing it.

www.corpun.com Main menu page

© Colin Farrell
Page created: June 2001

Starman

Very true and I agree with you 100%. Here is a list of participating nations.

Note: All figures may vary according to source. This measures peak strength as sizes changed during the war.

South Korea 590,911
USA 480,000- including-- Puerto Rican 65th regiment
Britain 63,000 [1]
Canada 26,791[2]
The Philippines 7,000
Turkey 5,455[3]
The Netherlands 3,972
Australia 17,000
France 3,421[4]
New Zealand 1,389
Thailand 1,294
Ethiopia 1,271
Greece 1,263
Colombia 1,068
Belgium 900
South Africa 826
Luxembourg 44


Total: 941,356–1,139,518

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The._65...antry_Regiment

tre_cani

You want to argue general semantics?
Let's see... you said:
How is my thinking flawed when you write, "That's what's wrong with America..." and "Like the American..."?
Perhaps it is simply my perception that you imply, ALL Americans?

Ouch. A fool, eh? Well, you're certainly entitled to that perception of my intellect.

bhayne

Yeah, a good scare tactic when you saw the result of your friends getting the punishment (no, I didn't inspect my friends butt. I am referring to the crying). I remember the fear and anticipation before the event. I received it only once for playing ball in the living room and breaking a vase; it scared me straight!! But an hour later, it was like nothing happened and all was forgiven. As kids, whenever we were doing something we shouldn't (a dare), the 'yard stick' always came up and we'd stop. Quite a powerful tool when you can remember an hour long event 40 years ago!!

Now that I have children growing up, I wish they'd bring it back!!

The 'yard stick' as we called it was not a weapon- but in the wrong hands could be used as one. There is a right way and a wrong way. Your exert is the 'wrong way'!!

LUNAGODDESS

The next time that I have to read or hear about an minority that was dismissed from a job because of their color...I will be sure to them that it is all in their heads...the next time a majority or a new arrival walks the american streets and feel it is their business to express an negative opinion about minority american...I'll be sure to tell them it is ok to treat some one with total hostility because of the color of their skin is not to your liking and because of that fact...therefore should suffer poverty and injustice...and the misrepresentation being broadcast by the media about such groups in America...since I walk the walk and talk the talk ...I understand that racism is one of weakness in the foundation of this american society...How do you correct this problem ...those that are responsible for this weakness...need to clean it up ...donot to cover the eyes of those who are watching to see who is at fault ...diversity training is needed for all of us... we should never hide because of the issues of weakness....just because it is to deep to handle mentally...those who wish to cover it up...remember all righteous things will come to light and all things done in the dark will soon show through when the light shines on it...bias is backed by the oppressor...this play ground needs to be repaired...never cover your eyes...look at the damage...is it not nasty...yes then clean it up...we as a nation are not sinless...I have no plans in being blood guilty about anything...I know the fight will cause a life...I have family that sacrifice a lot for the sake of human rights...the battle continues...never back down when you know you are right...yell it out loud...make sure of all things...I am not bonded to servitude...I will not close my eyes to the damage done to mother earth and the faith...and this is the reality of life in the real America...If you do not like it then ask those that are challenged by it on how to fix it...it hurts...yes...this nation brought forth some nice events in human history...but it is not perfect...that is why the words striving for perfection in used by Thomas Jefferson...we all want heaven on earth...need to address the problems of poverty, crime, education, morally...here...then guess what the world will notice and world will ask themselves can we do this at home...the answer is there a willingness to get rid of ignorance...if yes...now take this story and use the nations Iran an Iraq the same problem exist there...problems with their minority population ...racism and nationalism...human right violations seems like a strong similarity...and with North Korea their issues are poverty...you are not eating...no one cares...nuke the world because no one cares...racism and nationalism...effective because someone or a people decided to close their eyes and say it is a lie...