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Home > Society & Culture > Politics   »   Iraq, N Korea, Iran

 
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Old Oct 10, 2006, 09:52 AM
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Iraq, N Korea, Iran

Ok.

We are in Iraq, Iran will possibly have nuclear weapons within the next two years, and it is possible N Korea could be fairly close if not already there. We are distracted in Iraq, so what do we do?

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT CUT AND RUN OR BUSH'S POLICY ON IRAQ OR WHETHER OR NOT IT IS AN ILLEGAL WAR! Instead I want to hear what you think about what can be done with the current situation we HAVE to live with.

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Old Oct 30, 2006, 07:22 PM   #41  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman

BTW

I almost lost my life at the hands of Beijing airport taxi and hotel reservation employee ruffians who went about as if no law at all existed there. Strange for a land which punishes crime so severely
You ought not to upset foreigners in their own country.

Published on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 by the Independent/UK
China Leads Death List as Number of Executions Around the World Soars
by Anne Penketh, Diplomatic Editor


Executions around the world are nearing record levels, and the Unites States is among the four countries which account for 97 per cent of the total, a report has found.

At least 3,797 people were executed in 25 countries in 2004, according to a report released today by Amnesty International.

The report says China easily operates the most stringent capital punishment regime, with an estimated 3,400 executions last year. In second place, Iran executed at least 159, Vietnam at least 64, and 59 prisoners were put to death in the US.

The number of executions worldwide last year was the highest since 1996, when 4,272 were carried out.

No official figures are available for China's execution rate, and Amnesty has changed the method it uses to calculate the number of executions there. According to Amnesty's report for 2003 China carried out at least 726 executions. The much higher figure of 3,400 executed last year is an estimate based on internet reports of trials, although it is still described as the "tip of the iceberg".

Kate Allen, Amnesty International's UK director, said China's record was "genuinely frightening". Amnesty quoted a delegate at the National People's Congress in March last year, who said that "nearly 10,000" people were executed every year in China. Corruption is among the crimes which carries the death penalty.

Ms Allen said: "It is deeply disturbing that the vast majority of those executed in the world last year did not even have fair trials, and many were convicted on the basis of 'evidence' extracted under torture.

"The death penalty is cruel and unnecessary, does not deter crime, and runs the risk of killing the wrongly convicted. It is time to consign the death penalty to the dustbin of history." Yet the figures conceal a trend that shows a general move towards abolition. "The world continued to move closer to the universal abolition of capital punishment during 2004," the report says.

Five countries abolished the death penalty for all crimes last year - Bhutan, Greece, Samoa, Senegal and Turkey. This means that 120 countries have abolished the death penalty in law or practice.

Although the US has become accustomed to being named in the grim league table alongside states such as Iran, which it has branded an "outpost of tyranny," there were fewer executions compared with 2003, when 65 were held. Two prisoners with long histories of mental illness were put to death in the US, but the Supreme Court ruled that imposing death sentences against child offenders contravened the US constitution.

In several of the 38 American states where the death penalty is still legal, the lawfulness of lethal injection has been challenged on the grounds that one of the chemicals used may mask a prisoner's suffering.

Amnesty says that six prisoners on death row in the US were released last year after they were found innocent.

Kenny Richey, a Scotsman, whose conviction for murder and arson was overturned on appeal earlier this year, is still at risk of execution because Ohio prosecutors are trying to have the decision overturned.

Ms Allen said: "Last year I visited Scotsman Kenny Richey on death row in Ohio and saw the true wretchedness of a system that can condemn someone to years of calculated cruelty as they await death at the hands of the state.

"Even now Kenny is effectively suspended between life and death. We want to see Ohio prosecutors accept the senior state court's decision and release Kenny immediately," Ms Allen said.

In some countries, such as Vietnam, it remains a state secret to reveal the number of executions carried out. Video evidence of North Korea's execution of defectors was produced last week in a video released by a Japanese non-governmental organization.

MOST EXECUTIONS

Total in 2004

1 China 3,400*

2 Iran 159*

3 Vietnam 64*

4 United States 59*

5 Saudi Arabia 33*

6 Pakistan 15*

7 Kuwait 9*

8 Bangladesh 7*

9= Egypt 6*

= Singapore 6*

= Yemen 6*

*Minimum

© 2005 Independent News & Media (UK) Ltd.

Sky News has obtained chilling new evidence of mobile execution buses being used by the Chinese government.

It comes less than two years before China hosts the next Olympics - an event it was given after promising to improve its human rights record.

China's penal system is surrounded by a wall of secrecy, but an investigation by Sky's China correspondent Dominic Waghorn found between 3,500 and 10,000 people are put to death each year.

The volume of executions has meant China has invented new ways of killing, mobilising and mechanising its execution system.

A brochure acquired by Sky News reveals details of China's new execution buses now operating across the country.

Fitted with lethal injection equipment they can deliver on-the-spot executions.

Sky News spoke to a number of people affected by the executions including the family of Nie Shubin who was only 20 when he was wrongly accused of rape and murder.

His mother and sister told how he was held in jail for three years, without being allowed to see his family.

Nie Shuie said: "They never let me see him after his arrest. That continued till the end. I never saw him again before he was executed.

"And nobody told us that he had been executed."

Nie was accused of attacking a woman in a field near his home, but only after his execution did another man confess to the attack.

In an exclusive report earlier this year, Sky News gathered evidence linking China's execution system and its booming organ transplant industry.

Amnesty International says the demand for transplant organs may be driving the high number of executions in China.

Even by official figures more people are executed every year in China than the rest of the world put together.

etc, etc, etc.
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Old Oct 31, 2006, 07:05 AM   #42  
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I just saw a video smuggled out of North Korea. Three men were caught smuggling a woman from North Korea into China. All three were tied to a post and executed. They didn't seem too interested in organs. The execution was on the spot; no one came forward to admit they were related.

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31pumpkin agrees: "they didn't seem too interested in organs" That sounded almost funny but it does make one realize the double waste of life.
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Old Oct 31, 2006, 07:08 AM   #43  
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I ust saw a video from North Korea where everyone was happy and singing and saying how much they love the world.
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Old Oct 31, 2006, 10:29 AM   #44  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morganite
You ought not to upset foreigners in their own country.

.
My statement concerning my experience at the Beijing Airport wasn't meant as a contradiction to your information concerning the justice system in China. It was only
an expression of my surprize at their audacity despite their strict justice system.

As for who was to blame--please remember that I was there when certain things happened and that those who were not there are in no position to judge--especially when I haven't given the details.
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Old Oct 31, 2006, 03:02 PM   #45  
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My association with those of Chinese descent have proved one thing they are not cowards...if they desired to come after some one they would have done so...China understands it’s enemy...that is why China hold the largest amount U.S. currency...they invested strongly in the U.S....get over China...North Korea is in despair...it needs your attention...they will get it by any means necessary...China does not want this leader of North Korea to f*** up it’s lands...Former Secretary of State Powell stated he would not be blackmailed...in reference to North Korea...this is a poor nation ...stating to the world...hate me then I will hate you...go to the table...have a conversation with this man and his people...poor on poor will bring more hatred to the west...the west needs to correct it’s problems ...and clean up the mess ...that should have been done after the war/conflict...North Korea has a growing population ...that understands these things...I am in hunger and no one is feeding me...nor is anyone helping me take care of myself...rebuilding is the answer...terrorize and burn will only mean the end of this system of things...
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Old Oct 31, 2006, 04:20 PM   #46  
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If China is as wealthy as they are saying she is--then their shouldn't be a problem in helping the poor nation of North Korea at its border-especially when they claim to be such good friends. This strikes me as an Asiatic form of capitalistic interminable hoarding of wealth by the fortunate few while those who have very little are considered as deserving it and unworthy of any significant help.

It also comes across as weird that the Chinese were more than willing to sacrifice thousands of Chinese lives to keep North Korea communist by fighting the United States but didn't follow up by making sure that once it was that way its population would not suffer the poverty now present or that its people would not come under the present tyranny.
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Old Oct 31, 2006, 04:43 PM   #47  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardBondMan
I think we have to somehow find a way or ways to communicate with those leaders that threaten us, I am opposed to "direct" negotiation with them however and don't quite know why I think that way - I surmise that I dislike dealing with radicals, but I am sure there are ways to communicate through others. Remember the Cuban Missle Crisis and how we communicate with the Russians ? Through an American journalist talking with a Russian diplomat at a restaurant in the US. The journalist told the Russian diplomat that in return for us removing warheads from Turkey, the Russians would remove already armed warheads from Cuba and shelve their plans to install more missles in Cuba. The diplomat asked with what authority the journalist was speaking and the journalist replied from the "highest' American authority. Without lines communication open we somehow become fearful of each other.




What's wrong with face to face talks with those you esteem as enemies? Why use back door diplomacy unless you are a back door country?





Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryArt
Smaller or less-developed nations with a relatively small or inferior conventional militaries present a special problem for the very reason that their military capabilities are so limited.

Faced with a vastly superior enemy, what would be the logical expectation for a smaller country about to lose a war (and all that goes with that) that, while it could not prevail with conventional arms, had a nuclear device? Of course they would use it. Given the choice between defeat and employment of atomic weapons, most governments/militaries would quickly nuke their opponents.

Nuclear weapons are seen as the great equalizer by the leadership of many smaller, third-world, and developing nations. Indeed, the United States relied on exclusive possession of atomic weapons to keep the Soviet Union at bay without having to expend tremendous sums on conventional military forces. We had 'em, they didn't, what's the worst that could happen? It was like fistfighting, only your opponent has a gun and you don't... You can't really even try to beat him. That strategy worked until the U.S.S.R., with a little help from the Rosenbergs, got their own.

Fortunately, the answer to nuclear proliferation amongst smaller nations is quite simple. They want the weapons so as to keep larger, stronger nations (like ours) at bay. They need nukes because their conventional military is inadequate. The most effective solution, therefore, is to make it clear that the U.S., or, preferably, the U.S. and allies, will attack and destroy any facility believed to be utilized for the manufacture of such weapons

As soon as we detect that Country X has developed the ability to produce weapons grade material, or a delivery system readily usable for a nuclear strike, we will destroy your research and development facility, as well as any military installation known to be the base for personnel working with nuclear weapons - either the design/fabrication, research, or in a line unit to be armed with nukes - we destroy such facilities, quickly and completely, along with a degree of punitive damages, designed to discourage such policies.

What are they gonna do? They wanted nukes because their conventional forces were inadequate to mess with us, so what are they gonna do if we destroy their facilities? Exactly nothing, because they can't. That's why they wanted the weapons to begin with.


That is precisely the kind of bullying talk that has made the USA the pariah of the civilised world and the bane of developing countries.


Consider this: If the US leaders have brains but don't use them, why would leaders of other countries who have nuclear weapons use them?






Quote:
Originally Posted by Morganite
That is precisely the kind of bullying talk that has made the USA the pariah of the civilised world and the bane of developing countries.


Consider this: If the US leaders have brains but don't use them, why would leaders of other countries who have nuclear weapons use them?
Q: Why do they need to keep your nation at bay?
A: Because you pose a threat to their existence!

Go figure


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Old Oct 31, 2006, 05:37 PM   #48  
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The squeaky wheel is the one that gets the grease, and North Korea is screaming for grease. China is afraid that if it get any worse a whole lot of refugees will invade from N.Korea, just like the Mexicans do in America. Desperate people will do desperate things.
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Old Nov 1, 2006, 01:25 AM   #49  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
If China is as wealthy as they are saying she is--then their shouldn't be a problem in helping the poor nation of North Korea at its border-especially when they claim to be such good friends. This strikes me as an Asiatic form of capitalistic interminable hoarding of wealth by the fortunate few while those who have very little are considered as deserving it and unworthy of any significant help.

It also comes across as weird that the Chinese were more than willing to sacrifice thousands of Chinese lives to keep North Korea communist by fighting the United States but didn't follow up by making sure that once it was that way its population would not suffer the poverty now present or that its people would not come under the present tyranny.

The Chinese did not fight the United States in the Korean conflict. The US was a PART of a UNITED NATIONS force composed of many other nations besides the USA. Altogether sixteen nations, including US forces, formed the UN Force to repel invaders from North Korea and prevent them overwwhelming Southn Korea.

The US often speaks as if it was the only player at the table, which is not only inaccurate, but also unattractive.


M

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Gary,
That reasoning could explain why the US is so hated.
The US is 'hated' because it is an imperialist bully. If you are an American, put yourself in the shoes of a nation that the US is threatening, and dictating to. A nation that boasts of being the land of the free ought to recognise the freedom of other nations to forge their own destinies.

America is not the worlds greatest democracy. it is one amongst many great democracies, but it seems to be the only one that dictates to other countries how they should govern themselves.

These are serious issues.



M

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainForest
Wow.

Obviouslly you aren't familiar with sarcaism.

I have nothing against most Americans. A huge portion of my family are American and live there.

Just sometimes, certain people get on my nerves. I don't judge an entire country by the actions of a few.




You are right there.

I was once in Florida on vacation when I was asked, "Where do you come from". I replied Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Then, they seriously asked me if I lived in an igloo.

Sometimes ignorance is sad, and with some people, it does exist.

Most of the time I try to stay out of voicing my opinions on US domestic issues, not always, sometimes.

But seeing the education system and other things in the US, im glad to be living in Canada. (some US states scare me, others are not at all bad)
Some of my best friends are American, but I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one.

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Old Nov 1, 2006, 06:05 AM   #50  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
I ust saw a video from North Korea where everyone was happy and singing and saying how much they love the world.
It was either that or get shot on the spot. And that part of the video would be screened.

With over 1M troops with guns, I'd be thin and jolly too!!

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Thomas1970 agrees: Excellent points!
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