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We have two toilets in the house, for some reason one of them loses the water from the bowl on an irregualr basis. It seems to be when there's a change in weather however, the problem is that the water level goes below the trap and then we have the sewerge smell rising into our house. Flushing immeidately solves the problem as the water is then back covering the trap. The catch is, this toilet is int he ensuite, there is noting worse than waking up to a sewerage smell wafting through the bedroom!
So far we have added a vent to this toilet as it orignally didn't have one but this hasn't solved the problem. Like I said, it's irregualr so may happen heaps for a while and then not happen for months and I cna't prove it but it does seem more often when the weather is changing. Still we need a fix please beacuse the smell when it happens is awful.
Ron, (KISS) hit on just about all that could be causing this.
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So far we have added a vent to this toilet as it orignally didn't have one but this hasn't solved the problem.
I keep coming back to the vent.
Therre are only two things that would cause you to lose enough water out of the bowl to break the trap seal. 1) if there were a crack or a factory defect that allows the water to drain out of the bowl.**or** 2) the vent's not doing its job and the water's being suctioned out.
If you're thinking weather conditions, (Please explain what the weather does to cause this. Does it get colder? Hotter? Rainy? More windy? What???
Ron mentions a open window.
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Well your not imagining things and it does likely happen when the weather is changing due to the diference in pressures between the house and outside. It won't happen with the window open.
If a there's a change in atmospheric pressure in the house why aren't all trap seals affected? And it would take a lot of atmospheric pressure to force a toile bowl to lose its entire water seal. Your ear drums would be popping.
I keep coming back to the two things that would cause this. Well, the bowl can't be cracked because it doesn't do it all the time. That leaves just one thing. He suggested installing a AAV,( air admittance valve). Looks like Ron and I were thinking along the same lines. What if the vent that was just installed was hooked up wrong somehow? I think installing a AAV's a dandy idea. This would ,indeed, prevent any water being siphoned out of the bowl either through atmospheric pressure or faulty venting. Good luck and please keep us informed. Tom
Change in weather is probably defined as 0-48 hrs before rain.
If you have two toilets and one is on a lower floor that the other, bet the one on the higher floor is affected.
Change in weather is probably defined as 0-48 hrs before rain.
If you have two toilets and one is on a lower floor that the other, bet the one on the higher floor is affected.
In over 50 years out in the field, both up North and down South I have never heard oif a weather change suctioning the water out of a single fixture trap while ignoring all the others. And why a toilet that has much more volume in its trap then say a lavatory? Please explain to me how this could happen. You're never to old to learn and you seem so certain that this could really happen that perhaps I've been missing something all these years. Sooooo!
Educate me!! Regards, Tom
I've seen the condition I referenced a few times where the water level in a upstairs toilet changed and the down stairs did not. I've also seen water in the toilet bowl jiggle or pulsate.
I do know what is considered a "weather change" because I am affected by them. I did some research on my own looking at the second derivatve of barometric pressure vs time. e.g. how quickly the barometric pressure is changing. I also know that weather has 7 phases. So, I know the definition of a weather change.
You know about sump pumps and head and you also know that as the pipe diameter increases the pump has to deal with less head. (.44PSI/ft). Well air also has to deal with those same frictional losses and I think the difference in the vent from the basement to the first floor is about 1/2.
This also says that the larger pipes are easier to move. lbs/square inch of opening. So, this says that say a 3" diameter pipe and a 1.5" diameter pipe will need ((3/2"-1.5/2)^2), the 1.5" pipe may need 1.75 x more pressure to displace the same amount of water.
Amount of water is immaterial, the pressure on both sides of the trap should be zero. If it's not, water will move.
So, therefore due to friction losses and the lengh of the stack, the displacement due to delta P can be diferent. Larger pipes are more affected than smaller pipes because smaller pipes have greater frictional losses.
So, what can exert a delta P.
Pressure in the house different than outside.
Now that you made me think a bit, we could be acted on by three pressures. Vent, house and sewer.
Everything being equal, vent = house = sewer = 0.
The pressure in the vent CAN change faster than the pressure in the house.
Wind and atmospheric pressure I think are two variables. Far fetched is the aerodynamics of the roof(s). i.e. stack height too low.
What we overlooked though is the possibility of negative pressure in the sewer. I think that can happen if the sewer is damaged and suffers from sewer overload due to too much water infiltration in the pipes. Same thing might happen, but the toilet closest to the sewer could have a lower level.
Comments, criticizums, does it make any sense at all?
I think that is true.
In this process, I think I added two more posibilities: sewer overload, vent stack too low.
So, that being said, I'd like to know which toilet is affected? Upstairs/downstairs/same floor?
Firstly, both the toilets are on a ground level. The one affected is the closest one to the septic tanks. It joins into the line that comes from the other toilet.
Now, as for weather changes, I would say it mostly seems to happen during a weather change heading towards rain but I really couldn't fathom why the weather should have had anything to do with it, however, having lived here for 5 years now it did seem to be pattern.
The vent was only added a week ago when it was thought that was the reason as this toilet didn't have one, however, we have lost the water twice in the last week so would seem this isn't the problem. Having said that I closed the window about a week ago due to the bad weather that came in so I will re-open it now and see if that makes a difference. When we lose water it will be within a couple of hours of having flushed, we know it refilled but then it goes. The other toilet has lost water previosuly before however, this has probably happened to the other toilet only twice in five years, whereas the toilet I am talking of loses water probably 10 to 15 times a year. When it happens, it happens suddenly, it's not a slow loss, it's gone within a couple of hours. Yet the rest of the year the toilet is fine so don't htink it can be a crack or anything like that.
But if this were so and atmospheric pressure can suction trap seals out why isn't every house in the nation affected by the same thing. And why, after 50 years, am I first hearing about it? Let's hear for the other experts. You guys ever run into this situation? Certainly there's a pressure differential when a strong wind blows over a roof vent but to suction the trap seal out 0of a toilet bowl? Do you realize the ammount of wind force it would take to do that? Right now, as we speak, I am experiencing a hurricane, (Fay) as it passes by my area. I see the toilet level "bounce" a bit but I haven't lost any of the seal. I still wanna know. Why suction out a toilet trap when a lavatory or a tub/shower trap has much less volume to be moved then a toilet bowl. I'm still confused and in the dark. Perhaps it's simply old age and brain lock that prevents me from understanding. regards, Tom
You know I just had to pop in and offer up some thoughts...
I live in New England and we get some absolutly crazy weather up here..including hurricanes and microbursts...and I have certainly seen water bobbing in toilet bowls...but just like Tom I have never seen anything related to weather siphon a toilet bowl of water once...never mind 10-15 times a year.
Crazymum...tell us has anyone actually lifted the toilet off the closet flange and looked inside the base of the bowl to see if there is anything that has attached itself to the inside of the bowl and is now actually SIPHONING the bowl via capillary action..?
Here, if floss or mop strings or anything like that (tampons/tampon strings) got caught up inside the trap of the bowl it could effectively drop the level of water in the bowl by water climbing up the string/floss, etc., and over the trap and falling by gravity into the drain pipe. Now this I have seen a number of times over the years.
Then, you ask, why is it not happening all the time?? Well, I'd answer that it all depends on exactly what is getting hung up inside the bowl and if it is getting moved without getting loosened and then siphons the bowl sometimes but not others. Maybe the inside of the toilet trapway is roughed up and catching bits of paper/floss enough to siphon the toilet occassionally but not to clog it (a little more far-fetched)??
Crazymum...if toilet bowl has not been lifted I suggest you lift the toilet and see what may or may not be caught in the bowl/base of the toilet and let us know what you find (if anything).
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