[speedball1]

I have been following this post and actually made the first comment. Flange this, flange that. Venting, drain, slope. I said it than and I'll say it again, this is really a job for a professional. I've installed my own toilets and I am loathe to think that I can't figure out how to do things myself, but this application has too many variables. After all your work and a month later then the toilet backs up or leaks from the flange you will have to call a plumber. He will have to undo all you have done and than start again. Are you really willing to take that chance? I know that I wouldn't and I'm no sissy.
BTW, the whole concept of the flange is that it is secured to the subfloor, accepts the seal from the wax (don't even think about using that pretaped crap) and prevents the toilet from rocking. So the answer is that it should be flush with the finished floor. Even a 1/8 inch too high will set it rocking, break the seal and possibly crack the bowl.

augestknight aka Stephan,
The "first comment",(in a earlier post) I saw was , "You really want a vertical drop from the toilet to drain pipe. I seriously doubt that you could run what would basically be a horizontal pipe without back up problems."
Well Stephan, I have news! Every toilet that a plumber sets has a vertical drop from the toilet to a horzizontal closet bend or a drainage ell.
The entire thrust of your message in both posts is not to take a chance on doing the work yourself but to hire a plumber to do it for you. Hey Stevie! I have more news for you!
The very reason the plumbing page exists is so the asker doesn't have to strap his bank account by hiring a plumber. If I were to follow your adviceI could just copy and paste up, " You're too stupid to do this by yourself, HIRE A PLUMBER." on all my answers.

While I appreciate your comments and opinions, the one thing I will not tolerate and let slide is misinformation and bad advice. I move in to correct it every time. Your comment about the toilet discharge was not correct
and now I see.
" the whole concept of the flange is that it is secured to the subfloor, accepts the seal from the wax (don't even think about using that pretaped crap) and prevents the toilet from rocking. So the answer is that it should be flush with the finished floor. Even a 1/8 inch too high will set it rocking, break the seal and possibly crack the bowl."

Wrong in two places! (1) "So the answer is that it should be flush with the finished floor."
Because a toilet bowl has a 4" horn that extends well below the floor line a toilet flange can be set on the sub floor with no negative results. We set them on a finished floor because the floor is finished when we come in to trim the unit out and set the fixtures. Which brings us up to number two.
(2)" Even a 1/8 inch too high will set it rocking, break the seal and possibly crack the bowl."
Wrong again! If you will look on the underside of a toilet bowl you will see the lip raises up the bowl up so that it never sets directly on the flange, so your comment, " So the answer is that it should be flush with the finished floor." is incorrect because, surprise! When we trim out a house and install a closet flange on top of a tile floor it sticks up at least 1/4" inch higher then the floor. As I stated, While I welcome your comments I wish you would preface them with, "in my opinion" because if you present them as facts and I find them to be incorrect, I'll shoot them down every time.
Stephan, I hope you take this as " constructive criticism" and not as some sort of a personal attack. I value all opinions on this page, even if I don't agree with them. Regards, Tom

[augustknight]

I know that the drain EVENTUALLY goes to horizontal but as all plumbers know, gravity is your friend, use it. And I will defer to Tom on the flange but suggest you check with manufacturers instructions.
Remember you can only save money by getting it right the first time. You have done quite a bit on your own, a redo on the toilet will eventually cost you more. It's your call, no one else's.

[dmrlook]

Good morning Rob,
While we prefer a 2" vent a 1 1/2" vent's acceptable if a 2"" vent presents difficulties in installing. What fixture is the existing 1 1/2" vent servicing?
Cheers Tom

Hey Tom - the 1.5" vent that is already in the wall next to where I want to put the toilet is servicing the kitchen sink one level lower (which also means it is servicing the dishwasher when it pumps into the kitchen sink drain). Which, now that I think about it, might be a good argument for biting the bullet and running a full 2 inch vent from the toilet and connecting into the main vent line in the attic. My thought process being, when the dishwasher is going (i.e. draining) at the same time I flush the toilet, maybe the 1.5" vent will be overwelmed. What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Rob

[dmrlook]

...Remember you can only save money by getting it right the first time. You have done quite a bit on your own, a redo on the toilet will eventually cost you more. It's your call, no one else's.

Hey Stephen - thanks for the posts. Correct - I have done a lot on my own. Singlehandedly remodeled an entire townhome from the studs out in less than 4 months including 4 tile floors, 3 bathrooms, a new shower, new walls, new wood floors, new electrical, etc. And, I've made some mistakes (installed my first tile floor too low from the existing closet flange, and the toilet rocked like you said. But, nothing a 1/4 inch piece of cement backerboard under the toilet and caulked on the exposed edges to match the tile floor did not fix. I find value in screwing up. That's how I learn. Of course, it would suck if I had to rip up the whole completed bathroom to fix the pitch in the new toilet drain run. Let's hope that does not happen :-) Perhaps it would be a good idea to hook up the toilet on the subfloor and use it for a while while I am building the vanity in the garage and if it does back up, it will be easy to fix (or hire a plumber at that point if necessary).

Thanks for the advice! I'll let you all know how it works out. I am starting to run the line today :eek:
Rob

[speedball1]

Hi Rob,
"when the dishwasher is going (i.e. draining) at the same time I flush the toilet, maybe the 1.5" vent will be overwelmed. What are your thoughts on this?"
While 2" is preferable I think the 1 1/2 vent will vent both fixtures at the same time. Back in the old days we ran a 1 1/2" vent to service a entire bathroom group. Cheers Tom

[speedball1]

I think Tom is a better plumber than he is a speller. Who is Stephan? I prefer Stephen and August is wrong also. Pissy huh? But certainly not personal.
I know that the drain EVENTUALLY goes to horizontal but as all plumbers know, gravity is your friend, use it. And I will defer to Tom on the flange but suggest you check with manufacturers instructions.
Remember you can only save money by getting it right the first time. You have done quite a bit on your own, a redo on the toilet will eventually cost you more. It's your call, no one else's.

First off I apoligze for misspelling both of your names. I don't understand you're original comment, "You really want a vertical drop from the toilet to drain pipe. I seriously doubt that you could run what would basically be a horizontal pipe without back up problems."
I'm still trying to figure out how to set a toilet without a vertical drop.
Pissy? Ya think I'm being pissy? You come on a "do it yourself" site and in both of your posts and advise the public, " not to take a chance on doing the work yourself but to hire a plumber to do it for you because you might do it wrong."
What do you want me to do? Close this page and hang out a sign saying. "Do not attemp any repairs by youself because you might just screw it up."
No my friend, this page is set up for homeowners that don't want to hire a plumber and are asking for instructions on how to fix it themselves.
Sure, it's possible for a asker to make a mistake. This is called "a learning process" and they won't make the same mistake twice. This is what I do. I give instructions and advice on how to repair it yourself. Back in the 60's this would be called. "my bag". If everyone followed your advice and hired a plumber there would be no need for this page and I could go veg out on the beach each day. Fortunately that's not the case here. So if thre best aqdvice you can give a do it yourselfer is to hire someone to do it for him then perhaps you don't understand the concept of a "do it yourself site".
You can call it "pissy". I call it, "telling it like it is". Have a great weekend. Tom

[augustknight]

Tom, I'm willing to put our difference of opinions aside, however I ask you please not to put words I never said into quotes. When you paraphrase do not use quotation marks as you did with this line:You come on a "do it yourself" site and in both of your posts and advise the public, " not to take a chance on doing the work yourself but to hire a plumber to do it for you because you might do it wrong."
Those are not my words in that text and I do believe everything I said was my opinion and not the words of a licenced plumber. If I was a licenced plumber I would provide my licence number with my posts.

[speedball1]

Stephan,
You're correct, You come on a "do it yourself" site and in both of your posts and advise the public, " not to take a chance on doing the work yourself but to hire a plumber to do it for you because you might do it wrong." are not your words advising a asker not to try it himself because he might screw it up.
Here are your words coppied from three separate posts.
(1) "After all your work and a month later then the toilet backs up or leaks from the flange you will have to call a plumber. He will have to undo all you have done and than start again. Are you really willing to take that chance? I know that I wouldn't and I'm no sissy"
(2) "this is a a job you want a professional to do. If you don't know what your getting in to you can really screw it up."
(3) "Remember you can only save money by getting it right the first time. You have done quite a bit on your own, a redo on the toilet will eventually cost you more. It's your call, no one else's."

Hey! Great words of encouragement for a do it yourselfer to hear. I want you on this page all the time dropping tid-bits of wisdom and giving helpful advice. Oops! I'm in error. You haven't given any plumbing advice yet have you? But I'm sure the askers will take your advice,( Hire a plumber ) to heart and never show back up here again.
And as for, "I do believe everything I said was my opinion and not the words of a licenced plumber. If I was a licenced plumber I would provide my licence number with my posts."
But you're not a licenced plumber are you? (Oops again! Since you very kindly trashed me out for misspelling your names, let me return the favor. Licensed is not spelled "licenced")
"If I was a licenced plumber I would provide my licence number with my posts." What? You don't think I'm a plumber? I want some of that $hit you're toking on
I'm not advertising for business, I retired in 1988 and I'm not out on the field any more. My license lapsed years ago and I can think of no reason you would ask me for it unless you think I've been faking it for the last five years on the Q & A boards. And if I have been faking it I've been doing a pretty damm good job of it over the years.
In closing let me paste up what labman had to say to someone that came up with the same negative attitude that you've displayed.

"People come here for help on DIY projects. It is great we have somebody that really knows what they are doing to help them. Tom is willing to patiently get back with people as new questions come up. I wish I had Tom years ago when I was learning much of what I know the hard way. One important function of a site like this is to say when to give up and call a professional. And there are such times. Unfortunately those not knowing very much often advise others to do so on easy DIY projects. I have also seen posts perhaps best explained as by professionals seeking job security. Often with enough help, somebody can accomplish a challenging project they otherwise couldn't.

This site has a policy of not allowing attacks and insults of other experts. It is especially upsetting by those that know less than the one they are attacking.

The plumbing page was working very well, one of the best forums here. I think it is time time for some people to leave where they aren't needed."

You can pick what parts of his post that you can relate to. Cheery bye, Tom

[augustknight]

Thank you drmlook for your feedback. I certainly hope that things go well for you. Steve

[speedball1]

Thank you drmlook for your feedback. I certainly hope that things go well for you. Steve

Thank you Steve and I wish you well also. What's a "drmlook"? Tom

[augustknight]

Drmlook is the moniker of the person you have been advising for the last several days. Exactly what are you thanking me for? It seems at odds with the fact that you reported me twice for inappropriate content.
Tom all my posts and all your posts are there for anyone to see. YOU are the one that provoked this spat by disavowing my advice. On two occasions I was willing to drop it but you chose to escalate this petty squabble. Yet I am the one that has been notified of personal attacks. It is plainly obvious to me that the administrator is squarely behind you right or wrong.

[dmrlook]

Thank you Steve and I wish you well also. What's a "drmlook"? Tom

Hey Tom - dmrlook is basically my initials (RDM) rotated plus the word look. I came up with it when I was "looking" for an e-mail address that would hopefully get less spam than an e-mail address I used to use. So basically, it is nothing :-)

One more question for you - I am very close to having the new toilet run done. I have cut the existing line and have all the fittings and can make the run with only 2 22.5 degree turns spaced apart about 6 feet (plus, of course, the 90 degree closet bend). I was hoping to use a solid PVC ring (I forget the technical name) to join the new line to the existing work, but I don't have the play to move the existing stack enough to fit in the PVC ring. So, I am thinking of using one of those rubber boots with the screws to tighten it against the PVC pipes (I've seen you comment in other posts about a Fernco Neoprene Coupling - I think this is what I used in the past, and what I am thinking of using now). This boot will be almost horizontal (it will have the necessary 1/4 drop per foot slope of course). I have used these before to tie into existing cast iron drane lines with no problems. Will they work equally well with PVC?

If not, then I will just have to cut and rebuild some more of the existing work to get things to line up. I was just hoping to not have to do so.

Thanks,
Rob

[speedball1]

drmlook is the moniker of the person you have been advising for the last several days. Exactly what are you thanking me for? It seems at odds with the fact that you reported me twice for inappropriate content.
Tom all my posts and all your posts are there for anyone to see. YOU are the one that provoked this spat by disavowing my advice. On two occasions I was willing to drop it but you chose to escalate this petty squabble. Yet I am the one that has been notified of personal attacks. It is plainly obvious to me that the administrator is squarely behind you right or wrong.

Steve,
First off, lets get something straight. I didn't complain about you to any one. I figured I was doing pretty good without any outside help. I thought that post was aimed at me. And that you were calling it quits. I don't remember nicks. Have you any idea how many questions I answer a day?

" Tom all my posts and all your posts are there for anyone to see. YOU are the one that provoked this spat by disavowing my advice."
But Steve, the advice you were giving was either in error or just plain bad. It wasn't you, I'd have dumped on anyone who came into my page and began to pass out bad advice as fact. Nothing personal Steve, but I went through all your posts and I see you've been all over the place in the few days you've been on board. If you could pick one category, in all the ones you've posted in to be a expert in which one would it be? Please don't say plumbing. Regards, Tom

[speedball1]

Hey Rob,
The Fernco Coupling would work but if I can't use a PVC coupling I try for a coupling that gives me as much rigidity as possible. I like a No-Hub Band ,(see image) for this. The clamps on either side holds the two ends together like a PVC coupling. You can cover and bury this type of connection without any belling or sag from the weight. You can't say the same thing for the Fernco. But if a Fernco works for you go fot it. Cheers, Tom

[dmrlook]

Thanks once again - I saw both those types of connectory as well as the fernco ones. I decided to go with the fernco ones for two reasons:

1. I needed the flexability to get into where I was working, and
2. I purposely cut the two ends of the PVC such that they would only be an inch apart because I too was worried about sagging.

I also hung pipe hangers on both sides of the coupling.

Use the other bathroom a few times, and so far no leak. I have not yet completed the water feed line for the new toilet location, and still have to complete the vent for that new toilet, but the drain run for that toilet(minus the last 2 feet where I need to connect the closet bend, flange, and Y for the vent) is all done. That's for all your help Tom - I could not have done it without you! Looking forward to that first flush :-)

Rob

[speedball1]

Good morning Rob,
Well you took care of my concerns about using a Fernco coupling. Sounds like you have things well under control. I apologize for the interchange between Augustknight and myself on your thread but this page is committed to helping do it yourselfers like yourself and not advising them to call a plumber to do the job. I will continue to call out any one who comes on this page and gives bad advice dressed up as fact. Let me know how that "first flush" goes.
Regards, Tom