Hi,

My downstairs toilet just recently became a lazy flusher and sometime acts like it is blocked up. The RR guys came out and snaked it with no result. I pulled the toilet and installed a new one (the old one was builders quality and I was happy to replace it). This didn't fix the problem.

While I had the toilet off, the RR guys sent a camera down the main drain and told me I have a bellie at 75' down the line.

My question is. . . could this be the cause of my problem for the toilet? All the other toilets in the house seem to work fine.

Lastly, they quoted me $750 to replace about 4 feet of line which is buried 3 ft deep. Is this a reasonable price??

Thanks,

Greg

speedball1

Hi Greg,

Something don't smell right here! All the other toilets in you house have learned to get past the bell in your sewer line with no problem except that pesky downstairs potty. Stupid toilet!!! You'd think the other johns could teach him how.
OK!! So I was being sarcastic. But let's use some common sense here. (Fact!) Your downstairs toilet worked for ages with that bell in the line and then suddenly stopped working.
(Fact) All the other toilets are working and are not affected.
Now what does that tell us? Well, for one thing, that tells me the RR guys want you to finance a week at the beach by charging you $750.00 to dig down three feet and replace four feet of sewer. This would be about a two hour job for one man. Nice work if ya can get it! Especially if you don't really need it, because if you did everything would be affected, not just one toilet.
I don't mean to put the RR guys down, (and I might get a lot of feedback for saying this,) but in my area most RR guys aren't licensed plumbers. If they were they'd be out running jobs and not feeding a snake down a open cleanout. It doesn't take much plumbing smarts to shove a snake down a sewer pipe.
You say, "While I had the toilet off, the RR guys sent a camera down the main drain and told me I have a bellie at 75' down the line."
Did they go down the open toilet line or the house cleanout?
I have a few ideas why your toilet's acting up but need a few more details.
In your original complaint did the flush just swirl around and almost fill to the top before draining without taking the solids away?
Does the new toilet act exactly the same way as the old one?
Let's take it back to square one. Tell me why you changed the toilet and if anything happened just before that to make you think you might have a problem. Back to you! Regards, Tom

gsawtell

Speedball1,

Thanks for the quick response. . . Yes very stupid toilet.

This all started about a week ago. as you described, when fluhed, downstairs toilet would swirl to near the top without taking solids. Eventually it would drain back down, but when flushed again solids would float back out (probably never fully left the toilet).

This generated the first call to the local RR guys, who used a hand snake and said they only found a little TP. Toilet worked the same. . . every once and a while you can get a good flush, but mostly just behaved the same as before.

So, called back the RR folks, new guy this time. He looked at the upstairs toilets and said they drain slowly too. Seem to work fine for me, in that they take the solids away without multiple flushes. Anyway, new RR guy says our toilets are poor (Universal-Rundall) and says he can replace it for $700.

I tell him I can pull the toilet and replace it myself. I thought I wanted a pressure flsuher anyway, since I have 3 kids that use flushable wipes.

Anway, before leaving the new RR guy says he can send a camera down the open toilet line before I install the new toilet. He says "I'll do it for free." So the next day they run the camera. I was able to watch some of it. The two technicians showed me the sag, but I didn't see how long it ran or what was on the other side. Not sure that matters

The new toilet works much the same. The pressure does a good job of breaking up the solids, but then they don't leave the toilet. Again, toilet fills up without taking waste away.

Thinking it may be a vent issue, I climbed the roof and inspected the vents. Didn't have a snake, so pretty much just a visual. Nothing obviously wrong. I had a tool for pullling cable through walls. Ran that down. One vent came back wet. Again, not sure this means much.

Also, I have watched the clean outs during a good flush and water quickly goes down and then stops (as it should). When I get a lazy flush, I can see the water slowly running by for an extended period of time. I never see it back up from the belly to the clean out.

Cheers,

Greg

speedball1

I'm gonna go out on a limb and give you (1) what I think was wrong with your old toilet and (2) what I believe bis the matter with the new one.
Number one** I have one that most repair plumbers miss.. Look down at the bottom of the bowl. If there is a small hole, then that is a jet that starts the syphon action. If it's clogged the water will just swirl around and slowly go down leaving solids behind. Take your finger,(UGH!!) and run it around the inside of the opening. Over the years minerals build up and cut down on the syphon (flush) action. If it is rough or you feel build up, take a table knife and put a bend in it to get around the curve in the bowl and chip and scrap it clear. Next take a coathanger and clear out the holes around the rim. They start the swirling action.
That's what I think was the problem with your old toilet.
But wait!!! The new toilet doesn't have a blocked jet and it's doing the same thing, (I'll say it before you do)
Read on to number (2) In my capacity as shop trouble shooter I began to run into a slew of complaints on our new construction that were just like yours. I knew they all couldn't be " bad toilets" so I went looking for the cause. I found that when installing the new bowl that the wax ring had been forced out into the discharge pipe and blocking the free flow of water. When the water hit it a backpressure was set up preventing the siphon that makes a good flush and the solids just swirled around while the water went slowly down. I had to set up meeting with our plumbers and show them the problem and how to fix it. When you set the bowl, put the wax seal down on the flat side to the closet flange. Then take your hands and bevel the wax seal outward so that when you set a bowl on it the wax is forced out instead of in blocking the flush. The customer complaints stopped and I had less work to do. Try molding the wax seal so it doesn't choke down on the flush. Good luck, Tom

iamgrowler

I'm not a big fan of the RR guys myself, Tom, but a flushed downstairs toilet not making it's way past a belly in a line while upstairs toilets do isn't completely unheard of.

Remember the rules of velocity in horizontal lines versus velocity in a vertical line?

What's likely happening is TP and solids from the upstairs toilets are being hung up at the belly, while the faster flowing liquids are continuing on their merry way to the Sanitary Sewer.

And then a flush from the downstairs toilet, which has no vertical piping in it's run, thus no velocity, means the fluid and solids smacks right into the solids already sitting in the belly.

Anyhow, just a thought.

gsawtell

Well. . . sounds pretty close on the new toilet. Pulled it and turned it over. Just upstream of where waste exits the toilet was a piece of porcelain wedge into the trap. It looked like the cut out for the bottom hole of the toiletand acted like a flow divider Neither side was wide enough for solid waste, thus the backup (one side was already blocked).

On the first toilet, it didn't have a jet on the bottom. At least not one I could find with my hands or eyes. On the old toilet I tried pouring a bucket of water in, and it still slowly drained. Tried the same on the new one and water went right down.

So, hopefully it is all fixed. It has passed about 3 trips to the bathroom, but my son hasn't "tested" it yet. That will be the true test.

Cheers and I will keep you all posted,

Greg

speedball1

"Anyhow, just a thought"
And good thoughts they were too.

" Remember the rules of velocity in horizontal lines versus velocity in a vertical line?"

I remember the rule but did you miss the fact that the bell was 75' out from the house. More then enough line friction to slow the discharge down. And what of the other first floor fixtures that didn't have the volume or head pressure that the first floor toilet has. Why do they drain and the potty doesn't?

" What's likely happening is TP and solids from the upstairs toilets are being hung up at the belly, while the faster flowing liquids are continuing on their merry way to the Sanitary Sewer and then a flush from the downstairs toilet, which has no vertical piping in it's run, thus no velocity, means the fluid and solids smacks right into the solids already sitting in the belly.

Did you miss the part about the camera?
"While I had the toilet off, the RR guys sent a camera down the main drain and told me I have a bellie at 75' down the line."

No mention of all the "solids setting in the belly", No mention of water in the bell that would turn the sewer into a running trap or even how deep the bell was.
Nah! I think this guys problem's solved. If it's not we'll hear back from him.
Have a good one! Tom