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    Bluerose's Avatar
    Bluerose Posts: 1,521, Reputation: 310
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    #1

    Aug 14, 2007, 09:49 PM
    Where Do Ghosts Come From?

    We live in this world. But we each also live in a world of our own making. That world is created from our thoughts and beliefs. If a person believes in ghosts then there is a good chance that they will, sooner or later, see a ghost.

    Not being able to see a ghost does not mean that they don’t exist in this world. It only means that they don’t exist for you in your world.

    Same goes for Psychics. Within the Psychic‘s world, they are psychic. Bring two worlds together, two people with different belief systems, a Skeptic and a Psychic, they are both right from their particular point of view.

    I have been over this road many times and have adopted the motto ’Live and let live’. We are all entitled to our own beliefs. Sometimes I think Skeptics make too much work for themselves. However, I do support their work in exposing the frauds who deliberately take advantage of vulnerable people. But I pull back when they seem to be painting all Psychics with the same brush.

    I do not believe in ghosts, this is not to say that they don’t exist for some people. They just don’t exist for me. I feel the same regards Psychics, I’m not saying that they lie about what they do. I am saying that I have trouble accepting what they say they can do. And yet other people would swear by them. Each to their own.

    I just think we are missing something here. It might seem airy-fairy, but we must acknowledge the power of the mind. And the strength of beliefs and positive thoughts.

    Put logic and reason to one side occasionally and think about the power of the mind.

    Many successful people write books on their success. They say that we must think positive. They tell us that to become successful we need only become aware of the power of the mind.

    Don’t you think that same mind, the mind that created success, can also create ghosts?
    firmbeliever's Avatar
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    #2

    Aug 14, 2007, 10:50 PM
    I believe in ghosts, but I have never had any contact with one...
    :)

    And I do not believe they are a figment of imagination either, they do exist.Some people come in contact with them and some of these maybe from among those who do not believe in their existence, while others who do believe they exist may never come into contact with one!
    Clough's Avatar
    Clough Posts: 26,677, Reputation: 1649
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    #3

    Aug 14, 2007, 11:25 PM
    I think that it depends on the person's definition as to what they think a ghost is. And, I know that the definitions can vary greatly.

    You have posted a wonderful thought-provoking post! I am sure that the answers will vary widely. Discussion about these things could go on for awhile. Hopefully, others will be inclined to post also.

    The following are my opinions and thoughts based upon my experiences.

    I wouldn't doubt that certain things can appear to exist or even really exist because of the collective consciousness of our minds. The world is a big place - many different beliefs as well as many different experiences. I can't truly say that something doesn't exist or happens simply because I have not seen it or experienced that which supposedly has happened.

    I would rather not believe in ghosts or what psychics are supposed to be able to do. However, because I have had certain experiences in my life with spirits that I know to be true, then I can't deny that on some occasions I have been linked with the spirit world. I guess that I prefer to not call being connected to the spirit world having an encounter with a ghost. I think that sometimes people think that they are having an experience with a "ghost" when in reality, it is really an encounter with a "spirit."

    Concerning psychics, I would prefer not to believe in them. In fact, believing what I do as a Christian forbids being involved with seers of any kind. But, I can't deny that I myself have on occasion been able to "know" about something before it happens.

    I do think that the power of the collective consciousness of people can do both good and bad things. Think about the power of prayer? What about Voodoo? Can't think of another thing right now that might concern the belief in something that you cannot see, or that being reasonable would tell you that it couldn't be so.

    What about the talents of people? I prefer to call "talents" predisposition's to be able to do things well without having to do the amount of work or effort to do those things compared to those who would like to do them, but need to put forth a lot of work and effort in order to be able to do them. I know that how I use the word "predisposition" may be a new one out of the context that it is usually used. But, those with imagination will catch my "drift." There are possibly people who have "talents" to do things that most of us would prefer that they did not have a "talent" to be able to do such a thing. Like say, conjure up a ghost or see into the future.

    I just think we are missing something here. It might seem airy-fairy, but we must acknowledge the power of the mind. And the strength of beliefs and positive thoughts.

    Put logic and reason to one side occasionally and think about the power of the mind.

    Many successful people write books on their success. They say that we must think positive. They tell us that to become successful we need only become aware of the power of the mind.

    Don't you think that same mind, the mind that created success, can also create ghosts?
    I do agree with you that the same mind that creates success can also create ghosts. The mind is an incredible thing. Not one of us can comprehend everything that can be done with it, nor all of things that have already been done with it and using it at various places and in ages throughout the world. Some of these things concern faith, beliefs, so-called fate, surprise, wanting, pure logical analysis, the susceptibility to suggestion, so-called luck, love, hate, needing attention, being on drugs, mass hysteria, a predilection based upon what one has been taught, etc.

    Hopefully others will come along to share what they think. Firmbeliever already has.
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    #4

    Aug 14, 2007, 11:33 PM
    Clough "In fact, believing what I do as a Christian forbids being involved with seers of any kind."

    I agree with you clough and we too do not put much faith in seers.
    And I think you have explained your view quite well...

    I too believe that ghosts exist, but I have doubts about them being dead peoples spirits.I do believe there exists another realm from what we see (with our eyes) and the ghosts stay in them, but there are times when the two worlds meet.
    Hence people are able to see or feel what they normally cannot like a veil is being lifted between the two realms.

    For me this belief in ghosts is also a part of my faith.
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    #5

    Aug 14, 2007, 11:40 PM
    I recently had a grandparent that was very close to me pass away. While walking around her house on my own I was very aware that my mind was half creating images of her in the house because I wanted her to be there. I can see that someone perhaps not as rational as myself and more distraught than I was could see these images stronger than I did.

    It was first hand proof to me that ghosts are nothing more than imagination and wishful thinking.
    Bluerose's Avatar
    Bluerose Posts: 1,521, Reputation: 310
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    #6

    Aug 15, 2007, 08:39 AM
    firmbeliever,

    "And I do not believe they are a figment of imagination either, they do exist."

    Thank you for your response. I'm not sure if I made my post as clear as I wanted to. I'm not saying they are a figment of the imagination. I'm going a step further and saying that they do exist for some people because of what they think and believe.

    Perhaps Da-ja-vu can help me explain what I mean. Da-ja-vu is a split second glitch in the brain where we experience something but the brain doesn't get time to process it, then a split second later it does, and we are thrown off guard, we wonder "What was that?!" and in a split second our brain processes some data as to what it might have been and comes up with the most likely explanation for us. Some of us would simply dismiss it and some of us may believe we saw a ghost. Now what I’m saying is that once we believe we saw a ghost, we make it real. We create it, we bring it into this world.

    I have also seen ‘spirits’ like mediums claim to see them. I didn't recognise them and they seemed to be looking for something. I didn’t feel that I was able to help so I responded by saying, “I’m sorry. I can’t help you. But please keep trying, there are people out there who can help you.” I would like to say that this element faded and never bothered me anymore. But I still sense ‘spirit’ occasionally and my response is the same.

    "I too believe that ghosts exist, but I have doubts about them being dead peoples spirits. I do believe there exists another realm from what we see (with our eyes) and the ghosts stay in them, but there are times when the two worlds meet. Hence people are able to see or feel what they normally cannot like a veil is being lifted between the two realms."

    I agree with the above. And Clough's post explained it very well for me too. I also sense things, even to the extent that at one time I thought that I might be psychic. I'm not, but things happen that have been very useful to me from an early age. I have what I like to call a warning dream. I have posted about this before. Dogs feature in my warning dream - the bigger and darker the dog the more serious the warning. I also smell stuff - I smell roses where there are no roses and this makes me remember my mother. And I think she is simply letting me know that she is okay. I told my daughter she was pregnant before she told me, she wanted to know how I knew and I told her I smelled nappies!

    There is definitely something going on but like you and Clough I think it is more than 'paranormal'. I have said before, "It's you doing it." I still think it is all in our head but it's more than that.

    When I was younger, in my twenties, and going through some stuff and at the same time becoming overwhelmed with... let's say, the metaphysical, I talked to a priest. I'm not catholic, it was my step-father who suggested it. While trying to explain to the priest what I was experiencing, without sounding like a basket case, I said, "It's like God but it's more than God." What I meant was that it felt like God working in my life but it also felt more real - more than my experience of God. I am not a religious person, this could be the reason for not being able to accept that it might be God. I needed answers. He was very kind and very patient, I visited with him for a few weeks. He told me he had talked to other people who thought like I did. He told me that I needn't be afraid of it because it was a part of me. Something was working in my life and it didn't really matter what I thought it was if I believed it to be good. I did.

    I have experienced the same type of things you and Clough have, and I have always thought that there is more to it than can be explained through the paranormal of Psychics and Ghosts.
    firmbeliever's Avatar
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    #7

    Aug 15, 2007, 08:46 AM
    About the Dog Dream BlueRose,
    We muslims believe that black dogs that are not real dogs are the bad jinns/ghosts.

    Does this make sense to you?

    is your dreams bad or good when the dogs appear?

    I will try and explain ghosts as I believe...
    Here is an article which might interest you bluerose

    The World of Jinn
    The Jinn are beings created with free will, living on earth in a world parallel to mankind. The Arabic word Jinn is from the verb 'Janna' which means to hide or conceal. Thus, they are physically invisible from man as their description suggests. This invisibility is one of the reasons some people have denied their existence. However, (as will be seen) the affect which the world of the Jinn has upon our world, is enough to refute this modern denial of one of Allah's creation. The origins of the Jinn can be traced from the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Allah says:

    "Indeed We created man from dried clay of black smooth mud. And We created the Jinn before that from the smokeless flame of fire"
    (Surah Al-Hijr 15:26-27)

    Thus the Jinn were created before man. As for their physical origin, then the Prophet (saws) has confirmed the above verse when he said: "The Angels were created from light and the Jinn from smokeless fire" [1]. It is this description of the Jinn which tells us so much about them. Because they were created from fire, their nature has generally been fiery and thus their relationship with man has been built upon this. Like humans, they too are required to worship Allah and follow Islam. Their purpose in life is exactly the same as ours, as Allah says:

    "I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to worship Me"
    (Surah Ad-Dhariyat 51:56)

    Jinns can thus be Muslims or non-Muslims. However, due to their fiery nature the majority of them are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Jinns form a part of the army of the most famous Jinn, Iblis- the Shaytan[2]. Consequently, these disbelieving Jinns are also called Shaytans (devils). As for the Jinns who become Muslims, then the first of them did so in the time of the Prophet (saws) when a group of them were amazed by the recitation of the Qur'an. Allah orders the Prophet to tell the people of this event:

    "Say (O' Muhammed): It has been revealed to me that a group of Jinn listened and said; 'Indeed we have heard a marvellous Qur'an. It guides unto righteousness so we have believed in it, and we will never make partners with our lord'"
    (Surah Al-Jinn 72:1-2)

    In many aspects of their world, the Jinn are very similar to us. They eat and drink, they marry, have children and they die. The life span however, is far greater then ours. Like us, they will also be subject to a Final Reckoning by Allah the Most High. They will be present with mankind on the Day of Judgement and will either go to Paradise or Hell.

    Abilities

    That which clearly distinguishes the Jinn from mankind, are their powers and abilities. Allah has given them these powers as a test for them. If they oppress others with them, then they will be held accountable. By knowing of their powers, we can often make sense of much of the mysteries which go on around us. One of the powers of the Jinn, is that they are able to take on any physical form they like. Thus, they can appear as humans, animals trees and anything else. Over the last few years the interest in the subject of aliens and UFO's has become heightened. Programmes such as the X-files and the Outer limits have increased the popularity of the theory that aliens exist. Thousands of people have sighted strange looking creatures all over the world. These sightings however, have still not proven substantially that aliens exist. Rather - and it seems more plausible all the sightings of such creatures were just Jinns parading in different forms. So the next time you see something that looks like E.T, its most probably just a wicked Jinn trying to scare and confuse you!

    The ability to possess and take over the minds and bodies of other creatures is also a power which the Jinn have utilised greatly over the centuries. This however, is something which has been prohibited to them as it is a great oppression to possess another being. Human possession is something which has always brought about great attention. But the true knowledge of this subject is rare amongst the people. Over the last 3 decades the subject of possession has become very commercialised. During the 70's films such as The Exorcist and Rosemary's Baby were used to educate people about possession. However, because such institutions (the film industry) were heavily influenced by Christianity, knowledge of the subject was non-existent. Rather then educate people about Jinn possession, films such as The Exorcist just tended to scare the living daylights out of us![3] Only through Islam can we understand such a phenomena. We know as Muslims, that Jinns possess people for many reasons. Sometimes it is because the Jinn or its family has been hurt accidentally. It could be because the Jinn has fallen in love with the person. However, most of the time possession occurs because the Jinn is simply malicious and wicked. For this reason we have been told by the Prophet (saws) not to loiter in those places where the Jinns reside, e.g. graveyards, ruins, deserts, market places etc. We have also been commanded to recite the Qur'an frequently in our houses as the Prophet (saws) said: "Indeed, the shaytan flees from the house in which Surah Al-Baqarah (the 2nd chapter of the Qur'an) is recited" [4].




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bluerose's Avatar
    Bluerose Posts: 1,521, Reputation: 310
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    #8

    Aug 15, 2007, 10:43 AM
    firmbeliever,

    Yes that does make sense. I'm still checking out the rest of your post and may get back to you on it later.

    I was young when I began to dream about dogs and it was only with hindsight in my twenties that I began to recognise a pattern.

    My first warning dream to my knowledge - I was nine years old. I dreamed of large dark dogs coming into the house through the window, they could talk, and one of them looked right at me and said, "What the F*** you looking at!" Then they headed for my parents room. Next day I had my parents searching under their bed for "the dogs that came in the window". Not long after that my father was involved in a gang fight. They came to our door and called him out. This was the only time this ever happened and it turned out to be a misunderstanding. - I made the connection much later after a few more warning dreams.

    A few years ago I dreamed of a car accident, the car was a wreck, it was a red car. The firemen and ambulance people were medium sized light coloured dogs. This told me that everyone was okay. My daughter and her boyfriend were in a car accident that wrote the car off. I made the connection after the accident. I hadn't met her boyfriend yet and didn't know he had a red car. I shared my dream with my daughter later and with close friends and family who laughed and said, so it's your fault. I am a lot more relaxed and comfortable today sharing these things and can take a bit of ribbing when things happen like I said they would. To this day none of my friends or family will buy a red car. So someone is listening to me.

    I had the chance of a second hand car a year or so ago, a bargain. I went to have a look at it and fainted in the street. I have only fainted twice in my life. I felt shaky and shivery. Someone brought me a glass of water. I apologised and blamed the heat and told them I was sorry but I have to go. The car was lovely but it was red. And no, it never occurred to me to ask what colour it was. It was just a great bargain and I was just looking for a run around.

    Getting back to 'us doing it', it feels like a part of me knows what's coming and tries to warn me or help me with some guidance. I know how strange that sounds. But this is what I was getting at......... Rather than it being or coming from something outside of us like God, ghosts, spirits or Psychics, maybe it comes from the inside of us. Maybe it is us doing it... subconsciously.

    Does some part of us know the future and 'work' to get the information to our conscious mind in order to protect us? Is this what some people call the Higher-Self and others believe to be Spirit or God? I don't know the answers but I have lived with this a long time and cannot ignore the signs or what 'it' feels like to me. I have read a lot in an effort to understand more about this and have come across words like 'the inner protector, adviser and provider'. I also read that this type of extra mental activity/ability is often traced back to childhood abuse or a serious accident involving a bang to the head.

    There was a time, when if you tried to talk about this stuff, it was jokingly assumed that you must have been dropped on your head when you were a baby.

    But what if that is the case and the reason for this extra mental activity/ability. What if it is something in the brain that we would not normally be aware of but a bang on the head flicked a switch?


    Check out this link. It's not exactly what I'm trying to get at but it might come close to it.

    The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind

    "Jaynes suggests that the left and right brains were not itegrated the way they are today. Rather, the ancient brain was bicameral with the two brains working essentially independently of each other. The left half of the brain, the logical, language-using half, generated ideas and commands, which the right brain then obeyed. These commands were subjectively perceived by the right brain as coming from "outside"—as if a god was speaking."

    "The bicameral mind has begun to collapse into the modern unicameral mind of the self-willed, self-aware "I", and as a consequence the gods no longer speak to people, as they did in the days of old."

    "Jaynes suggests that each person had his own individual "god", which always told them what to do. The theory further accounts for why the gods were so naturalistic and anthropomorphic, rather than supernatural and otherworldly."


    .................................................. ..................

    "Is your dreams bad or good when the dogs appear?"

    "However, most of the time possession occurs because the Jinn is simply malicious and wicked."

    I understand.

    The dreams are neither good or bad. Today they are more like a puzzle that I have to work out. As a child I was a bit frightened. Now I simply accept it as a message from some part of me to me. I hope that makes sense.

    firmbeliever's Avatar
    firmbeliever Posts: 2,919, Reputation: 463
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    #9

    Aug 15, 2007, 11:34 AM
    Regarding the link on Bicarmel theory,
    I can't say much on it, but I am not into human evolution so I guess that rules out my opinion on any theory on it.

    About your feeling that it comes from within you,
    I believe some people have this intuition thing and it helps them along the way, I believe it is a gift from the Most Merciful.
    But I am not a believer in psychics as such,but I do believe that some people are more receptive to the other realm than some who may never have any such experience.

    About dreams, muslims have this belief that all the good dreams are from the Almighty, the bad from the devil/satan and then there are dreams from the persons mind.

    So maybe you are being warned about such things in dreams, I know some whose dreams seem to come true most times,but mine rarely does, so I cannot really say one way or another if this is from within you or if it is a sign from the Almighty for you...

    I know all my views regarding ghosts are through the Islamic viewpoint, that is because I understand it and believe in it so much... hope you don't mind that.
    Here's some more information on dreams-
    --------------------------------
    True dreams are a part of Prophethood, as it was reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “True dreams are one of the forty-six parts of Prophethood.” (al-Bukhaari, 6472; Muslim, 4201)

    Dreams marked the onset of Revelation (al-Bukhaari, 3; Muslim, 231).

    The truthfulness of the dream is related to the sincerity of the dreamer. Those who have the most truthful dreams are those who are the most truthful in speech. (Muslim, 4200)

    Towards the end of time, hardly any dreams will be untrue. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “That will be because the Prophethood and its effects will be so far away in time, so the believers will be given some compensation in the form of dreams which will bring them some good news or will help them to be patient and steadfast in their faith.” (al-Bukhaari, 6499; Muslim, 4200)

    The same may be said of the miracles which appeared after the time of the Sahaabah. This did not happen during their time because they did not need them, due to their strong faith, but the people who came after them needed them (the miracles) because their faith was weak.

    Dreams are of three types: rahmaani (those that come from Allaah), nafsaani (psychological, they come from within a person) and shaytaani (those that come from the Shaytaan). The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Dreams are of three types: a dream from Allaah, a dream which causes distress and which comes from the Shaytaan, and a dream which comes from what a person thinks about when he is awake, and he sees it when he is asleep.” (al-Bukhaari, 6499; Muslim, 4200)

    The dreams of the Prophets are wahy (revelation) for they are protected from the Shaytaan. The Ummah is agreed upon this. This is why Ibraaheem set out to fulfil the command of Allaah to sacrifice his son Ismaa'eel when he saw that in a dream; may peace be upon them both.

    The dreams of people other than the Prophets are to be examined in the light of the clear Wahy [i.e. the Qur'aan and Sunnah]. If they are in accordance with the Qur'aan and Sunnah, all well and good; otherwise, they should not be acted upon. This is a very serious matter indeed, for many of the innovators among the Sufis and others have gone astray because of this.

    Whoever wants to have true dreams should strive to speak honestly, eat halaal food, adhere to the commandments of sharee'ah, avoid that which Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) have forbidden, sleep in a state of complete purity facing the Qiblah, and remember Allaah until he feels his eyelids drooping. If he does all this, then his dreams can hardly be untrue.

    The most truthful of dreams are those that are seen at the time of suhoor [just before dawn], for this is the time when Allaah descends and when mercy and forgiveness are close. It is also the time when the devils are quiet, unlike the time of darkness just after sunset, when the devils and devilish souls spread out.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ArcaneAdorer's Avatar
    ArcaneAdorer Posts: 2, Reputation: 1
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    #10

    Feb 4, 2010, 01:29 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Capuchin View Post
    I recently had a grandparent that was very close to me pass away. While walking around her house on my own I was very aware that my mind was half creating images of her in the house because I wanted her to be there. I can see that someone perhaps not as rational as myself and more distraught than I was could see these images stronger than I did.

    It was first hand proof to me that ghosts are nothing more than imagination and wishful thinking.
    Either that or you filtered what you imagine what others go through from your own perspective/experience. I'm sure you imagined the more plausible and even likely occurrence... but it's certainly not the definite answer.

    There is so much that science fails to explain. More than one can even claim/boast about. 'Those who know don't talk, and those who talk, don't know a thing' is a phrase aimed to the phonies who talk nonsense and the honest people who are too stunned to speak of such true experiences.

    I've personally had witnesses/friends to convince me that my experiences are not signs of my own insanity. Heh, but you don't see me going around claiming I'm special for these experiences, writing books of even appearing on t.v shows. Honest people are out there, they just don't speak as avidly as the phonies fishing on the vulnerable.

    Don't shut down completely by patronizing the human nature (assuming they are weaker minded/irrational) it robs you of a deeper picture. ;)

    But to each her own.

    Blessings,
    ArcaneAdorer
    Capuchin's Avatar
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    #11

    Feb 5, 2010, 05:31 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneAdorer View Post
    There is soo much that science fails to explain. More than one can even claim/boast about.
    Not within everyday experience there isn't.
    ArcaneAdorer's Avatar
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    #12

    Feb 8, 2010, 03:50 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Capuchin View Post
    Not within everyday experience there isn't.

    You can't speak for the entire world on that one.
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    #13

    Apr 17, 2011, 12:33 AM
    I don't think I believe in the ghosts, but then again even if this legend of them in another world isn't true, where would the inspiration come from. Surely someone must of seen something to be able to come up with the idea, that lost souls are still living. Anyway people still find it crazy that only the believers are the ones who see or come into contact with the ghost, so maybe that has a connection to the appearances of these supernormal beings? Everyone already has a visual idea of what ghosts are but I seriously think scientists should stop dismissing the idea, if there has been accounts of years and years of sightings.

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