What is the name of your God?

orange

Oh cool... my biological mother's family came from Romania as well... the state/province of Transylvania, actually. Coincidentally, my husband's family is also originally from Transylvania. Our families lived quite close to each other, in neighboring towns, for hundreds of years... up until the Shoah, that is. Anyways I've always thought it was kind of cool that my husband and I met up here in Canada. It must have been fate!

orange

Yup I'm with you about the religious aspects. I love keeping the traditions and holidays, especially for the children, it's very fun. But I don't really believe in the laws (although I find discussions about them interesting), and I have no desire to become Lubavitch ever! I especially don't like the laws of Family Purity. My in-laws say Family Purity is not degrading to women, but I really don't agree. Just curious, but how common is Family Purity in Israel? Since you're secular, you don't practice it, do you?

orange

Thanks very much for the long response, Starman. It was fascinating to read! However, I don't think it's fair of you to assume that I take things lightly. Actually I am very serious in my discussions. And the remarks I made were based on things I've heard from my family and in-laws, who are very religious Jews. To say that they take any part of their faith lightly is really unfair and not true at all. I don't agree with all of their beliefs, but that doesn't mean I have to disrespect them.

milliec

Dear Chava,
You're right, i never practised the Purity laws - i only went to the Mikveh when I married (I had to show the Rabbi the notice that I went there)
I DO regard the purity laws degrading - I think that in old times, when people didn't have baths in their homes, there was a point. As to the period you're supposed to stay away -THIS IS really degrading!
In any case, among the Ethiopian Jews, in Ethiopia, women used to LIVE in a different shed!
As you very well know, this is the reason religious Jews won't shake a woman's hand!
TALK ABOUT DEGRADING!
Now i'm a grand mother - so if they won't shake my hand now - should I regard it as a compliment?
In any case, I look much younger than I really an (genetic trait) but I do have some white hair, so I am amused at times!
Bye,
Millie

orange

That's a good point, about not having baths in the homes. Yeah it makes more sense in that case, but not for today. I don't think anyone (except the very poor), don't have indoor plumbing these days.

And yeah I'm well acquainted with the not shaking hands or touching stuff. My father-in-law and brother-in-law both won't touch me. Apparently also, if we practiced the laws of Family Purity, my husband would not be allowed to touch our adopted daughter (niece) once she hits puberty, since they are not biological father and daughter. He assures me that he would never do that to Shaina no matter what, but I told him if he ever did I would divorce him!!! I really hate that law!!

And LOL about the compliment. Yeah probably you should take it as one!

Starman

My apologies if I came across as disrespectful. I am sure that your family takes their faith very seriously. So I in no way was trying to cast doubt on their sincerity. I was merely responding to your statements which seemed to justify ignoring the clear biblical exhortations in reference to God's name. Can we really say we take those commandments seriously if we justify ignoring them because of superstition or customs that developed hundreds of years after they were given? If indeed we are to hold the statements of the Hebrew scriptures as inspired of God, then the exhortation to make his name known should have been heeded not ignored or explained away as was done and as it is still being done. That's all I said.

milliec

Hi Starman!
We're not supposed to pronounce the explicit name of god. The way it is written in Hebrew, everywhere in the
Bible. In former entries, I've tried to explain what is considered the meaning of His name as seen from our language (Hebrew) - at least that's what i learnt in
high school.
In any case, we DON'T pronounce His name whenever we read it in the scriptures: the Jews who follow strictly our religion, pronounce "HASHEM", which means: The Name.
the others, the secular Jews (like me) say "adonay" which actually is a kind of hybrid between adoni-my lord, my master, and the plural form of the word lord, master (=adon), in plural it should have been adonym (hence, lords, masters).
In the Hebrew Bible text, God is also named ELOHYM = Gods, which is the plural of the word God (=el) - by this form it's meant that This God (ours, the one the Bible refers to) is above all other gods adulated by the polytheists religion, this god is the one in which exist everyl trait attributed to all other pagan gods.
END OF LECTURE!
(I hope! At least I'll try!)
Millie

Starman

I cannot try because you seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying.
You are assuming ignorance of these things on my part which is not the case.
I am aware that Elohim and other substitutes are used in the place of the original pronunciation and that is exactly what I am referring to. It goes against the original clear instructions given to Moses in which God's name was directly given to the Hebrews to be pronounced as given and not to be later shunned and substituted based on some superstition or some other idea that might come along. The instructions given Moses from the burning bush on Mount Sinai did not provide the option of substitution that you speak about. Exodus 6: 2,3

If I say my name is Alexander and tell you that it is very important that you remember this and you turn around and call me Joe, then it's clear that a mistake has been made. The trouble is that we humans have a tendency to make big mistakes and then we try to move heaven and earth in an effort to deny it by means of justifying it. Much wiser would be to simply admit that a mistake was made. Otherwise the sin is compounded by hubris.

orange

Thanks for your response, Starman. I'm really impressed and really appreciate you clearing that up for me. You're a gem on the forum for that! Most people just get annoyed and even lash out, and then I have to ignore them.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with not speaking the Name of G-d... if you've been following my posts I'm actually an agnostic with a fairly religious family. So I'm mostly just repeating what they tell me. As Millie says, traditionally we aren't supposed to say HaShem's Name. Again, all I can offer as an explanation is that the Jewish faith is not based soley on the Torah. The Talmud and certain handed-down traditions are considered important as well. For example, Channukah is not mentioned in the Torah. It started being celebrated in the middle ages, as far as I know. And some of those handed-down traditions, as you mentioned, were probably originally pagan, and picked up during the exile.

It might not make sense given the passage in the Torah, but there it is. I doubt the law will ever be adjusted or changed, as we have been practicing it for at least 2000 years, and there is a large amount superstition surrounding it as well. I liken it to a kind of "Steven Spielberg Raiders of the Lost Ark" superstition. Like I've heard religious people actually say they would be AFRAID to speak it.

The other thing is of course, we really don't know how it would actually be pronounced, since there are no vowels attached to it. I'm sure some very Orthodox Jews would argue that mispronouncing it would be disrespectful and much worse than not pronouncing it at all. And, since the Jews have no governing body or hierarchy (like the Pope, for example), each Rabbi and synagogue could do whatever they wanted. I doubt there would ever be a general consensus.

Anyways, interesting discussion, thanks!

milliec

dear friends!
I think both of you are real gems.
Starman, please forgive me if i call yo "my friend"!
I wasn't inferring that you didn't know what you were talking about - I just hoped to shed some light from this side of the world, hoping to help a little, maybe, though I always stress that i'm not claiming what i say is the absolute answer. (personally, i think there's no such thing)
I completely agree with what Chava had to say and i wish to add that this thing began with the 3rd commandment, i'm sorry if my private translation is a little awkward, but i don't have an english version of the bible.
this commandment forbids to mention god's name in vain.
everything mentioned in the bible got numerous interpretations . in this case, one of them refers to taking a false oath, like in the case of perjury, but another interpretation says that one shouldn't pronounce god's name casually, only when it's appropriate.
and since jews like to argue about every single topic, (there's an inside joke we say about ourselves: wherever there are 10 jews you'll get at leat 20 opinions... a very popular opening is:"...on the other hand...", and you'll be surprised to count the number of hands one has...)
SO: since no one can say when is the right situation to pronounce god's name, it's safer not to! isn't it?
in any case, it's true we write mostly consonants without vowels, but,the bible is written with the little dots used for vowels, (i'm sorry, i don't know their term in english). god's name could be read properly, but, as we all know, isn't.
Sorry, if i offended anyone, i really didn't mean to.
and by saying "end of lecture" i was refering to myself, because i felt i might have been too long.
( i can still hear my kids:"mom, o.k., end the lecture, will you?')
Mille
p.s.
almost no capital letters because i aimed to end this letter today (here it's 11:59 pm) i was afraid it might have taken me a whole week to type it properly!
M.