Okay I am a Wiccan and I am proud, when someone asks me a question about Wicca, I calmly explain an answer (unless they are one of those people who ask me and then tell me, no matter what the answer i give, that I'm going to hell, which is pointless cause Wiccan's don't believe in hell, well most of us don't anyways). But one day I was having a decent and calm talk of religion with one of my best friends and I asked a question that bugged me all the time when I was Morman, that applies to all religion with a bible. How do you know... that what is in that bible is really true? I mean the Christian bible has been rewritten and translated so many times that how do you know what it says is true and that someone who messed with it did not change something cause they didn't like what God said? Same with the Morman bible, the man who wrote it was the "only" on to see what God said and wrote it in a book. So basically, how do you know what you're reading is what it was supposed to be and was truely left unchanged from gods word?

Well my friend got all definsive and told me that it just didn't happen. I said but how do you know? These books were rewritten and translated by "the sinful hands of man" and did God not have a follower who betrayed him? How do you know for sure what your reading is true. Again she just got all mad and yelled at me and said that it JUST DIDN'T HAPPEN! Another girl in my class heard the convo and got all mad at me too. I didn't diss the religion and I didn't say anything mean, I just asked a simple question that had bugged me even before I became Wicca.

Why can't someone just say. "I don't know... I just need to believe it's true" or something like that or just say plainly "I don't know" or "I never thought about it", that's what I say when I don't have an answer. So why the do people always insist on yelling?

BiWiccanAndProud

The freedom. That's what drew me to Wicca, the freedom. There are no set rules that you have to follow (such as when you can start dating or when to have sex or what your sexuality should be). You make Wicca into what you want it to be. You write your own spells your own rituals and you make your own decisions. I love nature so that's another thing that drew me to it, the worship of nature, the thing that keeps us living that alot of people take for granted. It is such a respectful, open, and beautiful belief. The other thing that drew me in was the magic (no I don't mean casting spells or pulling bunies out of hats), when I went on my spiritual journey to find my deity it was... amazing... Even though I have a great love for nature after I became Wicca everything is enlightened so much more for me. It's so hard to explain just what it's like to walk and actually feel the elements around me. It's an amazing religion and I love it and believe in it with all thats in me.

BiWiccanAndProud

Beatlejuice I don't think I have all the answers to life and when I was in the deepest of despare there was no God there to help me and I saw no one. I have come close to suicide twice you want to know what kept me back? My brothers and sisters, the thought of them not having me there kept me back. I saw no god "he" has never revealed himself to me. Yet you say he shows himself to those who need saving and those who are "humble enough to admit they dont' ahve all the answers".

edit:
I am not trying to disprove the existance of your god I am just saying, because he reveals himself to you in your darkest hour does not mean he does to all if they follow him.

Synnen

I'd just like to point out that I, too, am Wiccan.

I've had encounters with both the Lord and Lady in my religion. I've not hit a rock bottom point in my life--it's just that a big part of my religion is the closeness one can feel to the God and Goddess, to the point where you can and do have encounters with them on a regular basis.

I'm not going to hell (I don't believe in hell). I'm certainly not ignorant and need to be taught about Christ--I was raised by Christian parents. Besides...most of the major traditions in Christianity are stolen from pagan religions like Wicca anyway. (The early Christian leaders decided that if you can't beat 'em, join 'em sort of thing--they incorporated pagan traditions to convert the pagans).

Unfortunately, Christians are taught as one of their fundamental beliefs that there IS no other "true" religion. "I the Lord your God am a jealous God. You shall have no other gods before me" and all that jazz. It makes them intolerant, because they simply can't believe that there is another god out there--THEIR god told them he was the ONLY god, and if you can't trust your god, then who CAN you trust?

Biwiccan, just try not to discuss religion with religious people. It only ends up in headaches and hurt feelings.

beatlejuice

No i am not a Christian because it is the most popular. I told why i am a Christian. It just so happens it is the most prominent but thats not why i believe it. But NeedKarma you sound like a very bitter person. Why are you getting so emotional and derrogative about this discussion? We are all here voicing our opinions and i think you are taking it too personally. I have not seen anyone on this forcing you to believe in Christ. We are just saying what we believe just like you are also voicing yours. Dont ask me to keep my beliefs to my self and yet you are making yours known. Because i could also say you are pushing your beliefs on others too. i can also call you an "athiest thumper" too because you are just as passionate about your beliefes. We are just having a discussion like mature adults, lets keep that way.there is not need to be hypocritycal and name calling.

BiWiccanAndProud

I've seen you in threads before Synnen I didn't realize you were Wiccan though . Hey mind if I ask you a few questions about Samhain? Me and my friend are celebrating but her celebrations always turn out rather dull cause she does not write her own rituals she gets them from a book (I've tried to tell her they are not as affective that way but oh well). Would you mind telling me what you do to celebrate? I really would like for this holiday to turn out better then Lunasadah did (doubt I spelled it right >.< I can't ever remember how to spell that name). Also are you into crystal healing?

Edit:

Beatlejuice you too were getting emotional early on in the conversation, you were taking it very personally earlier yourself.

Synnen

Well....what tradition of Wicca are you?

Book rituals are just fine, you know. They are no more, or no less, effective than personally written rituals. Samhain is really just a REALLY BIG year-end ritual. I know that ours this year involves change (as it should every year) and I believe that one of our priestesses will be raised to 3rd level on Samhain, but I'm not sure on that. We will be facing our triumphs for the last year, and giving thanks for them. We will be looking at ourselves in the present and acknowledging what still needs improvement, and we will be looking towards the future, setting goals for ourselves for the next year.

We will be having Circle indoors, as it's really darn cold where we are, and Samhain tends to be a long ritual. No one needs to get sick from being outside barefoot that long!

In the past, as a solo Witch, I had just faced my altar and gave thanks for the past year, and asked for blessings for the new year. Ritual can be as long or as short as YOU make it. Your friend isn't wrong, you know. It's just as effective to follow a script as it is to make your own up. The Goddess doesn't care, really. What counts is that you connect with Her, and that you are sincere in your belief.

I'm really curious, though, as to what tradition you are following, and what sources you are using. Wicca isn't a nature religion (although nature is revered, it's not worshipped), though many other pagan religions ARE nature based.

beatlejuice

I did not say he just reveals himself to those who need to be saved. I said he reveals himseft to those who sincerly call upon him. The if you seek him you will find Him you will have so much joy in your life and he will give you peace that surpasses all understanding. You will not want to kill your self. Because we were created to worship God and if we dont we feel a void and depression sets in. But if you get intouch with your creator and let him minister to you and have relationship with him your life will change. He will give you a new heart and new desires. i Know if there was no God the mirricle that happened with me would not have happened. There is no way i would have made it had God not showed up. I promise you if you open your heart and just put a child like trust in Him he will reveal himself to you. He love you as if you were the only person he ever made. And he desires you to have a relationship with you.

BiWiccanAndProud

What do you mean tradition? My friend and I were working together for a while but now we do esbats on our own. We plan on celebrating Samhain together and with my boyfriend so it's just the three of us. Some told me that rituals aren't effective if you don't write them yourself. And from what my friend was teaching me it rang off as nature based and she told me it was that(several other people have too). I'm slowly studying on my own now though. The two books I use the most for info though are "The Wiccan Bible" by Ann-Marie Gallagher and "Wicca: the solitary pratctionar" by Scott Cunningham. I've found some good sites too. But I don't know what you mean by what tradition. Please explain? I've only been practicing for about 5 months so I think I'm still a bit new at it. Tonight is my first solitary esbat.

and you did say that beatlejuice
P.S. synnen do you know anything about crystal healing? I posted a while back asking if anyone knew of some really good books on it cause I'm very interested in it (I've got a few books on it but they don't have what I"m looking for, if you want to know what just check out the thread in the books section). Thanks!

Synnen

Beatlejuice, I'm not going to get into a reddie-war with you.

Let's just say that every major holiday that Christianity celebrates has tones of the pagan religion that it took from. Trees, mistletoe, gifts, green boughs, holly--all Christmas traditions with pagan roots. Eggs and a bunny at Easter? Fertility symbols held over from Oestre. Halloween is when, in Christianity, the dead of the last year are able to walk for revenge (hence the whole costumes to hide from anyone who died that you may have wronged). For other pagan traditions, it's a time to acknowledge the things you did in the last year, face your faults, and vow to do better in the next year - a time to face your personal "demons", if you will.

For Christians, on December 25th, the SON is born. For ancient (pagan) customs--the SUN is born (look up the Roman Saturnalia for a LOT of the current Christmas traditions--including gift giving, feasting, singing, holding vigil - such as a midnight mass- with candles).

The idea of a god/follower walking on water was older than Christ. So was the idea of a god being born of a maiden/virgin. Look at traditions in the East and in Egypt. Look at Roman and Greek mythologies. Baptism, too, was pre-Christian - Achilles was technically "baptised"

Christianity borrowed from DOZENS of traditions and religions. I've even seen speculation that the disciples were named for other gods of the time of the Nicene convention. Matthew = Mithras, Peter = Jupiter, Mark = Mars, etc.

Please...do some research. I recognize that YOU believe in Christianity, and that it's a valid religion. I'm not trying to convert you away from it. I think that Christians that actually FOLLOW the teachings of Christ, and who love their neighbors regardless of their faults (as Jesus would do) are great people. It's the people that feel the need to tell me MY religion is wrong for ME that I detest. It's the people that truly believe the 10 commandments, but find killing people of a different religion to be okay (see the Crusades for numerous examples). It's killing people because they would not convert (um...the original missionaries to the New World, anyone?) that bothers me. It's Catholicism touting the benefits of celebate priests, then having a pedophilia issue in the church. It's burning innocent women because someone (usually someone in the church) accused them of casting a spell of lust upon the condemner. It's protesting against gay people, and denying them marriage, when God made them that way--and where does God say ANYWHERE that any kind of love is wrong? It's the selective reading of the Bible--Slavery was justified by the Bible, gay-hating is justified by the Bible, subjugation of women was justified by the Bible--and yet, incest isn't okay, even though Lot's daughters seduced him and bore him children. And how come, if it was okay in the Bible, so many people frown on polygamy? And yet you wonder how people could doubt Christianity? Christians don't even agree on what the Bible means, and you wonder how others could doubt that man-led institutions could get it completely right?

Christianity has some really great ideas! The problem is the people who think their interpretations of the Bible are the ONLY ideas, and try to force that "truth" onto others.

tchalien

Synnen, thank you for your thoughts and extensive knowledge on pagan traditions. I did not know many of those things. I am curious about your Christian upbringing and how you left the Christian church. Please know that I am not here to "force" my beliefs on anyone. Read over my responses and you will see I am here for dialog between people that are seeking answers. I do have to say that I am a firm believer in the Bible. It is the True Word of God... (sorry, I BELIEVE It is the True Word of God.) When bringing up situations from the Bible, you need to be aware, that there are many stories from the bible that depict sinful acts and show that there is a cost for sin. The Old Testament is full of descriptions of sin, and how the punishment for sin is death. This is why I BELIEVE that Jesus was sent to the earth. He gave his life in replace for mine. I am not going to ever be seperated from God again. I will die, but I will live forever in the Kingdom of Heaven. I DO NOT CONDEMN ANYONE. I do disapprove of sinful lifestyles. Realize that we are all sinners. I have sinned in my life. I try to obstain from sin and seek out the help of the Redeemer. I also know that I have confessed my sins (not to a preist) but to my Heavenly Father, and asked him to wash me clean. I gave my life as a whole to Christ, because he is my Creator, and my Savior. I DO NOT PUSH my faith or beliefs on anyone, I tell people about my faith, just like you do with yours. Please do not lump all Christians together, just as I do not lump all Wiccans(??appropriate term??) together. I also don't know much about Wicca, I find it more important to study my own faith, to ensure I am right where God wants me to be in my life. I pray that understand where I am coming from and that I am not here to "convert" anyone. I am here to speak the "TRUTH" as I know it and believe it. Thank You. And God Bless.