In this time of "politically correct" it seems that there is a general good feel attitude about religion. "You're OK, I'm OK" pretty well expresses it. Folks say it doesn't matter how you serve God, because we are all His children. I submit for your consideration this: the God of the Bible is not the same as Allah. Discussion anyone?

magprob

Oh my, the earth is shaking at its very foundation. I'm gnashing my teeth.

galveston

Jesus made a statement that any one with a minimal understanding of agriculture can understand:
Matt 7:16-18
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(KJV)

The fruit are the followers of any teaching. When those followers are violent and evil, the tree they fell from cannot be good. Common sense tells us that Christianity (as taught by Christ) comes from a different tree than any religion that makes its idealogy known by saying "convert or die".

Morganite

If you do not wish to continue this discussion, then you should not continue to contribute to the tread. However, not everyone agrees with your detemrination, and unless you are a terrorist you will readily recognise the right of others to hold to their own opinions, and acknowledge their God-given freedom to express them.

In a person's need to silence all opinions but there own there lurks the spirit of the evil one who will force men to hold to his own opinions, whereas God has said, " ... choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

No one can take from mankind the free moral agency that God - 'el - has given. If man was not free to hoose, then all a human being did or did not do would be imposed from wihtout. If that were the case, then God wopuld have no need to give commandments, unless he was magnificently capricious. Since God is not capricious, and since he does give commandments, then, ergo, man has the freedom of choice to conform or rebel.

Into this framework it beghooves no one to insist that any debate is final because the person insisting, even in capital letters, may be wrong. Ambrose Bierce defines being 'positive' as being wrong at the top of one's voice!

The provision of one - or two or more - proof-texts does not constitute reliable theological basis for deciding any issue, expecially since there are many names and titles of God used in the Bible alone. When the Bible is translated into Arabic, then the name of God - 'el - is rendered 'allah'.

To insist that an English rendering of a Greek rendering of an Hebrew word is the only proper answer to the question "what is the proper name of God" is to make a nonsense of every name by which God is known in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

There is no mention of 'Jehovah' in the Bible. That name is a term coined in ignorance of correct Henrew pronounciation, and if God's name is, for example, 'ya-ho-vah' then you could call on jee-ho-vah for an eternity and not be answered.

One name by which God ['el] is called in the Bible is 'el-shaddai' [god-almighty], and he is variously called by other names and titles that refer to his characteristics just as this one does. He is Lord of Armies, and so many other names and titles that it beggars belief that anyone would insist that he is referred to by only one of them.

Jesus' name is jehoshuah [yehoshooah], which means 'yah saves' and is rendered in the English of the AV as Joshua, and in the Greek scriptures as Jesus from the Greek 'iesus' [i-yey-soos] as the Spanish pronounce Jesus.

When Mary was told she was to conceive and bear the Son of the Highest, she was instructed to call the child Joshua: hence the name of the Son of God is Jesus [in English], and whatever it turns out to be in other languages.

The name of Jesus was not later changed to 'Alpha and Omega,' but he referred to himself as 'The First and the Last', and what that means should open a profound Theological and Christilogical discussion, but he did not thereby signify that he was to be no more called Jesus, but by two letters of the Greek Alphabet. Jesus spoke in Armaic and would not have used those Greek letters, but John took the Aramaic words of Jesus and used Greek equivalents.

The scriptures warn against darkening counsel by words without knowledge, and we ought to be careful when we make pronopuncements as if we had it directly into our ears from the very mouth of God, lest we come across as out of step with the spirit of religion and the spirit of love that Jesus was at pains to inculcate into those who were to be his true disciples.

When we speak of God's name, we rarely speak or intend to speak of one exclusive proper noun, but keep in mind all the attributory names by which God is recognised, and in whatever language is appropriate to the speaker.

For a Christian to insist that God's true name is Jehovah, when the record says that the name of Jesus is the only name that will lead men to salvation, then that Christian has some explanation to make to reconcile what seem superficially at least to be contradictory. If they are contradictory, then we need also to recognise that the book says that God is not the author of confusion, ansd so we know that our difficulty has not been made by God, and must look elsewhere for its source.

My point is that there is no one who has the authority to stamp on this or any other discussion in imperious terms without offering a full and detailed explanation and justification for doing so. If you have means of vindicating yoru self without simply hurling mean-spirited proof-texts in our faces, then I am confidant that you will get a fair hearing. I can guarantee that on my own part, and I know of others who will do the same.

Have Christian ministers ever extended that invitation to a heathen population?

Stephanie Gonzalez on December 13th, 2006 at 5:57 pm AST

'Convert or Die' is a computer video game set after the rapture, the players objective is to either convert non-Christians or kill them off if they refuse. Religion is a touchy subject and there are many radicals truly willing to commit such audacities. This game should be taken off the shelves; it gives teens the wrong impression of how to deal with non-Christians. If they are not taken off shelves they should at least be rated M for Mature to prevent teens from buying it. Even though some people may see this game as ‘right’ it’s completely hypocritical, Jesus did not at any point say in his teachings “Kill those who are different”. Instead of developing a video game that makes the player change who people are, create a game that will mend the rift between religions. We may have our differences but our job in this world right now is to look past those differences in belief systems and put in our effort to bring a little peace in troubles times. The game ‘Convert or Die’ isn’t helping with the tension; it’s only adding fuel to the fire.

Have heathens/pagans ever been faced with this choice by Christians, and, if so, how are Christians better than Muslims?

Can you detect the obvious contradictions in your quote?

31pumpkin

Morganite-
From what you have said, I can agree that blatantly objecting to the Muslim's "Allah" in a harsh way may be very counterproductive in these times.
I have no problem with(or ever have) with moderate Muslims who truly believe that Allah is God, God of the Bible, and therefore a good God.

However, 9/11 woke us up to a new reality. One doesn't have to be a Christian, but Christians are the ones standing up now to hopefully deter the growth of this religion. Why?
Because the Qur'an has too many violent verses in it.
This is the case of one town here in the U.S. where a pastor is standing up(along with protestors) and bringing it to the Mayor's attention that they do not want a Mosque being built in this particular area. They are aware of the "freedom of Religion" right, but they are still battling for the legal ownership of the land, hoping to stop the building of the Mosque. The Pastor would like all 17 verses(I think that was the # he said) that are violent in the Qur'an removed, before he will drop his case. He feels that in this inner-city town the youths will be too vulnerable, will convert to this religion which as it stands has a great propensity to produce violence. I hope he succeeds.

There is another place in London where they are going to construct a mega Mosque. Christian leaders again voicing their disagreement saying they have no problem with thee regular size mosques, but this is a Centre. The faiths deserve equality. Most importantly, the funding of the mega mosque is from a group that is confirmed aL-queda. But I cannot say what goes on in Europe or England, except that it is a shame that Tony Blair is leaving.

All's ok with living amongst Muslims if they remove the violent passages from their holy books. Until then, all are not safe and must be on guard. That's what the Lord tells us to do in the end times. How long "the end times" will take till the Lord's reappearance is unknown, but "we" must be on guard and hold firmly onto the Faith we have learned,and not doubt. For doubt tries to neutralize the love and power of God. And "we" know where THAT comes from.

May we all work towards peaceful coexistence!

magprob

It is easier to take over from the inside. That is a well practiced ploy in Utah and the surrounding states, in a lot of different, larger businesses. As they move up the ranks, only their "kind" get hired.

Morganite

Punkin,

I have a real problem with those who want other groups to do what they, themselves, are unwilling to do.
I note your objection to verses (I will take your word for the number of verses) in al Qu'ran that are 'violent,' and note that you require them to be removed.

If you really mean that, do you make the same demand of Jews and Christians to remove all the verses in the Bible that encourage violence in the name of God? I will not suggest that you are unaware of these passages, but if you are a Christian, than you, perhaps (I will put it no stronger than that), should be at least as aware of 'violent' passages in your own scriptures as you are of those in the book sof those with whom you find fault.

Will you give your solemn assurance that you will remove yourself from the midst of Christian, Jews, and Muslims until all three remove all the violent passages in their respective scriptures?

Peaceful co-existence can only become possible when the playing field is levelled and no demands are made of 'others' than those which we willingly impose upon ourselves, so that we treat all equally and not some as foul and others as flesh.


'By this shall all men know ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.'


MRGANITE

31pumpkin

Morganite-

That defense does not ring true with me. Since when does any of the Bible promote hatred and violence ? Is it not God himself that avenges?

It has always been, in the Bible, to seek peace & pursue it. However, when it is called for, fighting is done for defensive purposes. "Blessed are the peacemakers". We cannot always peacekeepers(espec. our leaders) Peace sometimes comes because of war.

Just look at Genesis 6- How God destroyed all people and the earth (except for Noah & the arkof course) because the earth had become corrupt and filled with violence.

Does the Bible say "go kill the infidels who do not convert?" No! it says pray for the unbeliever.

It is God who avenges against evil and violence. The Qur'an states that man should instigate violence. So yes, the removing of one man's version of justice from the Qur'an actually SHOULD be done. Especially now.

Morganite

I have made no defence of anything or anyyone. I have pointed out what could easily be mistaken for hypocrrisy through someone insisting that someone else do something to their holy book that the insister is unwilling to do to their own holy writings. That is all.

Even a cursory reading of the Bible reveals a God who is bloodthirsty and vengeful. I will provide some examples, and then you can find others for yourself.

"And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor [a false god]: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'" (Numbers 25:3-4)

Now ask your question, "Does the Bible say "go kill the infidels who do not convert?" YES!

"And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt: And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts." (Exodus 11:4-5)

"And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter." (I Samuel 6:19)

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;" (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword." (Deuteronomy 13:15)

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ." (I Samuel 15:2-3)

"And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under the axes of iron, and made them pass through the brickkiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem." (II Samuel 12:31)

"Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:16-18)

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)

"And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."

"And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves." (Deuteronomy 2.34; 3:6-7)

"And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and , with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21)

These are but a small percentage of similar passages in which God directes his poeple to murder, slaughter, and rape. How then can you even suggest that they are not in the Bible (unless you have a special, expurgated, edition for Christians and Jews with weak stomachs), and yet be so caustic against Muslims for what you describe as seventeen passages inciting to violence against unbelievers when your own scriptures have far more in the same vein? How do you advise Christians to deal with the following?

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deuteronomy 21:19-22

Since when does any of the Bible promote hatred and violence ? Is it not God himself that avenges? It has always been, in the Bible, to seek peace & pursue it. However, when it is called for, fighting is done for defensive purposes. "Blessed are the peacemakers". We cannot always peacekeepers(espec. our leaders) Peace sometimes comes because of war.

You will see that your position cannot be defended.



MRGANITE



.

Not exactly. It is true that there are irreconcileable differences. However, if we look for differences rather than search for and stand together on common ground, we do all our gods a grave dishonour.

I heard a wise holy man say: "When you die God will not ask you which church you went to, but he will ask you how much good you have done."

I stand on that. Bad cess to those who invent theological tests for faith and entrance into God's kingdom. If to enter heaven we needed to be able to explain the ifinitesimal niceties and nuances of Byzantine Christology, then who would gain entrance into the blessed place?

Live and let live: believe and let believe, love and let love, and God will be the final arbiter of all these things. Until then, wait on him, and do good to all the people you can, in all the places you can, and in all the ways you can. This do and God will in no wise cast you out.

MRGANITE




.

31pumpkin

Morganite-

No way! All your examples are applied to Ancient times, before laws were established.

Trouble is that from the Qur'an, violent acts are happening in modern times. Or can you not see the difference?

talaniman

A little off the original subject but how do you justify the few who do wrong with the many who are not violent in modern times and your reference to ancient man before the laws where established is not relevant to others who are non-christian, which is 75% of the world by the way.