In this time of "politically correct" it seems that there is a general good feel attitude about religion. "You're OK, I'm OK" pretty well expresses it. Folks say it doesn't matter how you serve God, because we are all His children. I submit for your consideration this: the God of the Bible is not the same as Allah. Discussion anyone?

Morganite

From the Bible, violent acts are happening in modern times. That is unless you do not consider hanging children from beams, naked, and whipping them with canes is violent.

~ The Rev. Arthur Allen Jr., 70, and four church members were found guilty of aggravated assault and cruelty to children for whipping two boys in front of the (Christian) congregation in February 2001.

~ After a 7- year-old boy complained to his teacher in February about welts on his back, Georgia child welfare authorities were surprised to discover that the beating had taken place not at his home but at services in his church

~ Welfare authorities said nearly 60 children had been seriously beaten by their parents and by church leaders, under the supervision of the Rev. Arthur Allen Jr., the pastor. Several children had open wounds, large bruises and welts, investigators said.

~ On Wednesday, in an Atlanta juvenile court, Chief Judge Sanford Jones reluctantly decided not to release 41 children of church families from foster care. Judge Jones said the children could go home if their parents agreed to spank them only with their hands, and by themselves at home, and not to allow girls younger than 16 to marry. The parents refused. "We're going to raise our children according to the Bible," said one parent.

~ Mr. Allen was jailed in 1999 for 30 days after ordering a 16-year-old girl whipped with belts, a beating that he acknowledged may have lasted half an hour.

~ Tanyaneeka Barnett, 25, a former church member, testified yesterday that teenage girls who had sex were frequently whipped during church services, after removal of their skirts or dresses.

~ Specialized pastors or prophets from “churches of revival” perform ceremonies to rid children of their sorcery. In many such churches, dozens of children can be held for days at a time, with food and water denied. In the worst cases, children are whipped, beaten or given purgatives until they confess to sorcery. Even after the process is concluded, however, children can be subjected to further abuse at home, and ultimately abandonment.

~ “We were not allowed to eat or drink for three days [either at church or at home]. On the fourth day, the pastor held our hands over a candle, to get us to confess.”
Brian, aged 12.

~ “Child sorcerers have the power to transmit any disease, including AIDS, to their family members. AIDS is a mysterious disease that is used as a weapon by those who practice witchcraft.”
A Christian Minister who specializes in child sorcery at a revival church.

~ Phil Williamson, headmaster of the Christian Fellowship School in Liverpool is leading a movement to restore the right of religious private schools to hit children. He regards spanking as part of the Judeo-Christian heritage. "If it's done in the right context, then children know that for somebody who loves them to smack them, something must have gone really wrong." His school hits girls with a strap and beats boys with a paddle.

~ Poll by Best of the Christian Web, a conservative Christian web site. It conducted a poll of its visitors. It introduced the question by stating that: "The American Academy of Pediatrics has condemned spanking saying it causes children to become violent. But Proverbs 29:15 says 'The rod and reproof give wisdom; but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.' " It asked the question: "Do you believe that spanking is an appropriate form of punishment for children?"
The first option: "Yes - Spare the rod, spoil the child" received 174 votes; the second option: "No - Spanking is abusive," received 11.

That is violence against the most vulnerable - some as young as three! justified from the Bible in today's modern world in the belief that God orders them to do it. So no one can say that it doe snot happen today. It does!

~~~~

Abortion clinics, providers and workers often live in fear of Christian activists. Only recently captured, Eric Rudolph has been charged with a deadly bombing at the Olympics and with two other blasts in Atlanta at abortion clinics. Although the choice of the Olympics as a target may sound strange, it must be remembered that many far-right Christians regard anything which smacks of internationalism - the UN, the IMF, and the Olympics - as tools of Satan. The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms regards the other recent attempted bombings and attempted arson attacks at Alabama abortion clinics to represent a heightened threat to life and property.

Government officials in both Canada and the United States have issued warnings to abortion doctors to take extra precautions. Anti-abortion extremists in Britain have warned the public that there "will be casualties" in the coming war, and that they did not intend to "turn the other cheek." As the anti-abortion rhetoric has increased over the years, so has the anti-abortion violence - property is destroyed, people are killed, and women are denied access to medical care.

When Muslim extremists place a bomb at a bus station in Israel, it is justifiably regarded as an act committed by "Muslim Terrorists." When are we going to wake up and recognize that similar acts here are being committed by "Christian Terrorists?"

Unfortunately, that label won't be used by anyone prominent any time soon. Conservative Christian groups are very quick to jump all over anyone who even so much as hints that Christians, as Christians, are responsible for any act of violence. It's one massive attempt at clinical denial, and the media and government rarely disturbs the fantasy.

Two recent examples show how dangerous such a disturbance can be. In one case the FBI and the Justice Department suggested that Eric Rudolph might be receiving aid or even a hiding place from any one of a number of anti-abortion groups in America. The reaction to this suggestion was swift and brutal as it was labeled "irresponsible, biased, and scurrilous."

Anti-abortion activists are quick to take offense at the idea that their movement might have anything whatsoever to do with helping an accused murderer - of course, this is the same movement which has produced "hit lists" of abortion doctors. We have also seen the widespread use of violent, war-like language on the part of major figures in the anti-abortion movement, and anyone who thinks that such rhetoric cannot have a negative impact is themselves in serious denial.

In another example, Katie Couric of the Today Show questioned whether or not the murder of Matthew Shepard might be linked with the increasingly hostile displays of intolerance on the part of various right-wing Christian groups like Focus on the Family. The reaction from members of such organizations was quick and massive - so massive, in fact, that NBC had to ask Focus on the Family to cease and desist with the phone calls. James Dobson, president of the organization, has also asked for an official apology from NBC.

Apparently, he is free to accuse homosexuals of whatever he wants - linking them to crime and drug use, if that is his whim - but any suggestion that his rhetoric encourages a climate of hate and violence is to be considered libelous. Brent Bozell of the Media Research Center considers it "one of the most insidious and bigoted attacks against Christians ever seen" for someone to suggest that Christians bear any responsibility for the Matthew Shepard's death. Somehow, I doubt he takes the suggestion that Christians are exhibiting any bigotry towards homosexuality very seriously.

~~~

Your grasp of history is as tenuous as is your grasp of the Bible. Just to illustrate with one example: the Code of Hammurabi was, according to historians, codified in writing sometime between 1792 BCE to 1750 BCE. His Legal Code consisted of 282 statutes.

The Exodus from Israel that Moses led, has been dated to 1250 BCE, so was had been written down long before the laws I quoted from the Bible.

It is really too bad of you to attempt to shift the grounds by introducing a qualification - and a patently false one at that! - to try to wriggle out from under your sweeping statements that the God of the Bible never commanded any acts of violence. I have shown you from your own Bible that me host certainly did. Live with it.

You might be unaware that much of the legislation contained in Al Qu'ran is lifted wholesale from the Old Testament. You don't get figs from thistles.

If you are saying that God changed, then you will have an interesting theological discussion on your hands as to whether or not God can fundamentally change his character.

There are times in our lives when our errors are pointed out to us that it is gracious simply to accept that we were mistaken, and not try to bluff and bluster our way out of it by insisting that we were getting at or meaning something else.

Besides which you asked: "SINCE WHEN DOES ANY OF THE BIBLE PROMOTE HATRED AND VIOLENCE?" Therefore, my answer stands and your objection falls. Suck it up like an adult.


MRGANITE




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31pumpkin

You misunderstood my answer. By" laws" I was referring to something like murder, kidnapping, or battery to say the least. Laws against crimes,punishable as in modern times.
Not anything to do with the Bible. It's government.
How do I explain - how many of Exremist Islam followers to moderate Muslims? Perhaps their numbers are the same. Just like all those CHRISTIAN names you gave. What was it, 25?
Don't count the ABORTION CLINIC violence! I'm not talking about 1 or 2 murders either.

25?

Morganite- tell that to Mohanir!

talaniman

Come on, can we stick to facts and not opinion? And why not count Abortion clinic violence? Fact- 75 mullahs rule Iran and set policy and control who has the money and everything else. The population has no voice in anything and no power to make policy let alone bombs and we all know it takes money to make bombs and raise armies and pay terrorists.

Morganite

I abhor the use of dishonest tricks in debate. Murder is murder whether it is a pro-life activist militant Christian or an anti USA militant fundamentalist Muslim.

One murder is one murder too many, so any attempt to make numericality the foundation of a debate that started with a simple but patently false statement will not gain weight, ground, or acceptance by trimming a bit of sail here and there to try to make it fit. If only one Christian murders as a reuklt of their reading the, Bible and one Muslim does the same after reading thal Qu'ran, then your case falls just as heavily and completely as if thousands were moved to act by similar passages.

It doesn't fit and no matter how many contortions and slitherings are applied to this case your statement that THE BIBLE NEVER PROMOTES HATRED AND VIOLENCE is wrong and has been demonstrated to be wrong to the satisfaction of all reasonable people.

Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.


Is this passage or is it not an example of the Bible promoting hatred and violence? It does not matter when it took place, because you did not make time an element in your statement that the BIBLE NEVER PROMOTES HATRED OR VIOLENCE. As you can see with your own eyes it clearly does.

Suck it up and move on, for there is little point in beating the same old drum once the skin of its argument is destroyed..


MRGANITE





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31pumpkin

Morganite-

After the walls of Jericho fell, the Lord commanded Joshua & the Israelites not to covet the plunder. Joshua 7:1-But the Israelites acted unfaithfully in regard to the devoted things. Achan son of Carmi, the son of Zimri, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took some of them. So the Lord's anger burned against Israel.
And so the Lord told Joshua to destroy" whatever among you is devoted to destruction."
Agreed? OK. Now do you think in present times someone reading the O.T.(Jew or not) would
stone someone's son to death for grand larceny?
No, because, and even in a RELIGIOUS sense,not to mention the laws of the land today, the Lord doesn't say go"go kill him", it's the devil that does that. You know it. I know it . And Jesus came as the great Intercessor for all. Again, God just doesn't say that anymore. He may say " go fight, I'm with you " but that is a completely different scenario.

Now, do you understand my point? You do not have to agree and that's fine.

talaniman

It seems like it is easier to separate the differences than looking honestly at the similarities. When you throw the books away, and stand naked and alone before the Creator do you honestly think that their are different lines for different Gods?

31pumpkin

That is the whole point of the question, Tal. We are NOT throwing the books away. We are reading them. The Bible & the Qur'an here. And if you insist on it - yes, there are different "lines" for different gods- exactly why Allah is not the God of the Bible. So, with your non-religious statement we're back to square one-the separating factor.
There is a difference between them(Qur'an & the Bible)
I proposed that some non-Muslim leaders said that there were 17 verses in the Qur'an that were violent(and should be removed) Of course they have similarities, but even one verse promoting violence is too much.

talaniman

You keep going back to that tired argument that has been squashed. And your statement about the different Gods goes against your own religion. My point that below the hard core adherence to the dogma that there are MORE similarities than differences. And no matter how you push the so called separating factor your argument falls way short or do you want to continue the dance around the obvious here, You no nothing about Islam or the Koran but can only spout misinformed ,prejudicial newspaper quotes so you can shroud your self in self righteous ignorance of fact that not only is erroneous but has no basis in fact. That you doggedly hold on to your book which I question your understanding of, to point out irrelevant information and belief and dismiss other fact presented already destroys the whole discussion. You can't reason with a closed mind. But it will be interesting to see which line your in when you meet your maker.

31pumpkin

No, you keep going back to your tired, boring arguments b/c you disagree. We cannot have a debate when you are so inclined to poke fun at the one who you disagree with. You are closed minded b/c of your ego, for what that is worth. You come in on a conversation & spew absolute grade school knowledge that doesn't have any idea of the Bible or Qur'an. You like to get right in the middle & twist the words to suit your own ego. True, I don't know a lot about the Qur'an and I'm taking some Christian leaders word for it.
But the Bible- I know a great deal about. Much more than you know now preppy.

Don't twist the words & don't insult me. I feel sorry for you BTW, b/c it is you who has to worry about "standing before God" I'm covered with the blood of Jesus. Are you?
No, I think you are counting on your own will. Ego is part of the soul. You are out of alignment. Your spirit must be first. You need Jesus first- not yourself.

If you'd be quiet for a while, we might hear more about the Qur'an/Koran. I wonder if you can control it, at least with the superego--maybe we could actually learn something.

magprob

Islam would rather be covered in the blood of Christians than the Blood of Christ.
In the name of Jesus and the blood of Christ, I pray for the misguided souls of Islam to accept Jesus Christ, the one true Son of GOD, lord and Savior! That and only that will make us brothers and allow us peace.