Ask Experts Questions for FREE Help !
Ask

    Do not Murder vs Do not kill.

    Asked Jun 8, 2006, 11:09 AM 11 Answers
    I was asked recently about Exodus 20:13 at another forum and promised to consider the matter here in order to keep the other thread on topic.
    Why is one preferable to the other and is it OK to translate the word involved as murder? I looked up the word in the Hebrew lexicon and it turns out that the word can be translated as murder instead of kill. Since translating it as "kill" would be nonsensical in view of God's commandments to kill those who disobeyed certain of his laws as well as to kill animals for sacrifice and wage warfare against certain Caananites, translating the word as "murder" is the correct translation. One thing to keep in mind is that writers of the Bible weren't stupid or prone to say one thing on one page and a completely opposite thing on the next. So translating word as "kill" is illogical on the part of the translator and makes one wonder what his or her motives were in translating it that way. Any comments?

    Below is some info:


    Translations using "murder" instead of "kill".

    Exodus 20: 13

    (New Living Translation)
    (New International Reader's Version)
    (Amplified Bible)
    (English Standard Version)
    (New International Version)
    (New King James Version)
    (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
    (Contemporary English Version)
    (New International Version - UK)
    (The New World Translation)



    The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
    Strong's Number: 07523
    Original Word Word Origin
    Xcr a primitive root
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Ratsach TWOT - 2208
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    Raw-tsakh' Verb
    Definition
    To murder, slay, kill (Qal) to murder, slay premeditated accidental as avenger slayer (intentional) (participle) (Niphal) to be slain (Piel) to murder, assassinate murderer, assassin (participle)(subst) (Pual) to be killed
    </TD

    King James Word Usage - Total: 47
    Slayer 16, murderer 14, kill 5, murder 3, slain 3, manslayer 2, killing 1, slayer + (0310) 1, slayeth 1, death 1

    http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/...23&version=kjv


    BTW
    The New KIng James Version renders the word as "murder" not "Kill" as the original King James Version does.

    Last edited by Starman; Jun 8, 2006 at 02:41 PM.
    Search this Thread
    Share |
    11 Answers
    RickJ's Avatar
    RickJ Posts: 7,694, Reputation: 855
    Uber Member
     
    #2

    Jun 8, 2006, 02:09 PM
    The New KJV is correct; the translation should be murder.

    The difference: Murder is premeditated. A person may be killed in an accident but a murder cannot be accidental.
    Helpful (2)
    Jonegy's Avatar
    Jonegy Posts: 166, Reputation: 37
    Junior Member
     
    #3

    Jun 8, 2006, 03:52 PM
    Thanks for the information Starman.

    Thinking back to the times of all the new versions I seem to remember the Roman Catholics abandoning the Latin and using the different country languages - that one was an interesting exercise given the nuances between languages except the priests would have been at least bi-lingual / Latin and by rights should have been able to translate direct from latin into their native tongue.

    Hmm - think I'll do a bit of Googling.

    Naaaaaaaaaaaaa - not all that interested.

    As always - may your god be with you
    Helpful
    Starman's Avatar
    Starman Posts: 1,308, Reputation: 135
    -
     
    #4

    Jun 8, 2006, 07:45 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonegy
    Thanks for the information Starman.

    Thinking back to the times of all the new versions I seem to remember the Roman Catholics abandoning the Latin and using the different country languages -- that one was an interesting exercise given the nuances between languages except the priests would have been at least bilingual / Latin and by rights should have been able to translate direct from Latin into their native tongue.

    Hmm - think I'll do a bit of Googling.

    Naaaaaaaaaaaaa - not all that interested.

    As always - may your god be with you
    Hi Jonegy!

    The language that is required in order to translate Exodos 20:13 is ancient Hebrew. The one required to translate the NT scriptures is koin Greek. The OT was also written in Aramaic so that also is another language translators have to work with.
    Despite their best efforts the translators of the Old King James Version made some basic errors.


    http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyK3...b-kjv-only.htm

    When the King James version was written, its mode of expression was modern. Now it isn't. So a modern language version has been provided.

    BTW
    Familiarity with the original language is only one of the qualifications needed to translate. Another is integrity. If integrity is missing then all the ability to translate in the world will make no difference at all since other factors besides what the text is saying will influence how the words are translated. For example, in an effort t buttress the hellfire doctrine many translators unjustifiably translated the word Gehenna, an incinerator outside the walls of Jerusalem as hell. Other words treated in a similar manner were, sheol, and tartarus. So translation evaluation must be solely based on how close to the original meaning the translation comes and not to how erudite the translator was.
    Helpful
    Jonegy's Avatar
    Jonegy Posts: 166, Reputation: 37
    Junior Member
     
    #5

    Jun 9, 2006, 05:08 AM
    Yep thanks again Starman

    However - with all these new "corrected" versions about today, it amazes me how many people revert to the King James if it suits their point.

    Do not take this as a snide remark - it is just an observation of some of the posts and quotations I've seen and heard.
    Helpful
    RickJ's Avatar
    RickJ Posts: 7,694, Reputation: 855
    Uber Member
     
    #6

    Jun 9, 2006, 05:14 AM
    While the KJV was the "standard" Protestant Bible for so long, most now agree that it's on the bottom of the list for textual accuracy; hence the NKJV and the many other worthy translations.
    Helpful
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 75,733, Reputation: 7221
    Expert
     
    #7

    Jun 9, 2006, 12:19 PM


    The problem with may translatoins, like the KJV is that people today don't understand 1600 english, heck if I droped you off in England today you would not understand a lot of what they were saying.

    So we read the word kill and think we know exactly what they writer is saying, that is far from the truth, the correct word is murder, since that was the meaning of the word kill in the original text.

    That is why it is obvoius that an accidental killing, killing for your government as a soldier were not considered sins though the bible.
    Helpful (1)
    Morganite's Avatar
    Morganite Posts: 863, Reputation: 86
    Senior Member
     
    #8

    Jun 11, 2006, 04:22 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Starman
    I was asked recently about Exodus 20:13 at another forum and promised to consider the matter here in order to keep the other thread on topic.
    Why is one preferable to the other and is it OK to translate the word involved as murder? I looked up the word in the Hebrew lexicon and it turns out that the word can be translated as murder instead of kill. Since translating it as "kill" would be nonsensical in view of God's commandments to kill those who disobeyed certain of his laws as well as to kill animals for sacrifice and wage warfare against certain Caananites, translating the word as "murder" is the correct translation. One thing to keep in mind is that writers of the Bible weren't stupid or prone to say one thing on one page and a completely opposite thing on the next. So translating word as "kill" is illogical on the part of the translator and makes one wonder what his or her motives were in translating it that way. Any comments?

    Below is some info:


    Translations using "murder" instead of "kill".

    Exodus 20: 13

    (New Living Translation)
    (New International Reader's Version)
    (Amplified Bible)
    (English Standard Version)
    (New International Version)
    (New King James Version)
    (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
    (Contemporary English Version)
    (New International Version - UK)
    (The New World Translation)



    The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
    Strong's Number: 07523
    Original Word Word Origin
    xcr a primitive root
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Ratsach TWOT - 2208
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    raw-tsakh' Verb
    Definition
    to murder, slay, kill (Qal) to murder, slay premeditated accidental as avenger slayer (intentional) (participle) (Niphal) to be slain (Piel) to murder, assassinate murderer, assassin (participle)(subst) (Pual) to be killed
    </TD

    King James Word Usage - Total: 47
    slayer 16, murderer 14, kill 5, murder 3, slain 3, manslayer 2, killing 1, slayer + (0310) 1, slayeth 1, death 1

    http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/...23&version=kjv


    BTW
    The New KIng James Version renders the word as "murder" not "Kill" as the original King James Version does.

    We should ask this question of a rabbi. The Jewish understanding of Torah is that each mitzvah is written tersely and therefore requires expansion according to certain tried and trusted principles.

    The ciommandment not to 'murder' is a ban against shedding inccocent blood. In this respect the word bears no difference to 'kill.' Arguments against that view are semantic but without worth.

    The word translated as 'kill' in Exodus 20:13 is Ratsach from a Hebrew root meaning to 'dash into pieces,' applied here specifically against the killing/murder of human beings with the meaning of 'put to death,' 'kill,' 'slay,' or 'murder.'

    That has to be understood against those occasions when Jehovah decreed that certain malefactors should be put to death. When it is a man is killed through judgement, then Jehovah considered it not to be murder. Killing in battle is another obvious exception. I havenever found that anyone has misunderstood the herem against killing innocent persons for gain, Jealousy, or insouciance, nor for sparing the lives of those who commit offences that do not carry the death penalty.

    In the scriptures wilful murder is distinguished from accidental homicide, and was invariably visited with capital punishment (Num. 35:16, 18, 21, 31; Lev. 24:17). This law in its principle is founded on the fact of man's having been made in the likeness of God (Gen. 9:5, 6; John 8:44; 1 John 3:12, 15).

    The Mosiac law prohibited any compensation for murder or the reprieve of the murderer (Ex. 21:12, 14; Deut. 19:11, 13; 2 Sam. 17:25; 20:10). Two witnesses were required in any capital case (Num. 35:19-30; Deut. 17:6-12). If the murderer could not be discovered, the city nearest the scene of the murder was required to make expiation for the crime committed (Deut. 21:1-9).

    These offences also were to be punished with death,

    1) striking a parent

    2) cursing a parent

    3) kidnapping (Ex. 21:15-17; Deut. 27:16).



    MRGANITE
    Helpful
    Morganite's Avatar
    Morganite Posts: 863, Reputation: 86
    Senior Member
     
    #9

    Jun 11, 2006, 05:14 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
    The problem with may translatoins, like the KJV is that people today don't understand 1600 english, heck if I droped you off in England today you would not understand alot of what they were saying.

    I was able to visit England and Scotland last year and understood every word, although the Co Durham accent can be a bit thick. But, provided the English and Scots speak English and not one of their fascinating ancient dialects, they are not hard to comprehend!


    MRGANITE
    Helpful
    Morganite's Avatar
    Morganite Posts: 863, Reputation: 86
    Senior Member
     
    #10

    Jun 11, 2006, 05:16 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by rickj
    The New KJV is correct; the translation should be murder.

    The difference: Murder is premeditated. A person may be killed in an accident but a murder cannot be accidental.
    Murder in the furtherance of theft or murder to escape arrest are not premeditated but they are still murder.




    MRGANITE
    Helpful

Not your question? Ask your question View similar questions

 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Add your answer here.


Check out some similar questions!

Was it suicide or murder? [ 21 Answers ]

Since the psychics who've responded to my questions on this forum have been so very helpful, I'd like to ask you to help me out one last time on something much more important than anything I've asked to date: Did my sister-in-law really commit suicide as the coroner's office has reported to us, or...

Murder or not? [ 5 Answers ]

If someone sees another person collapse but doesn't ever help them or call an ambulance, and the other person later dies, but would have lived if help had been offered, is that considered murder? If so, what degree of murder is it?

Movie About Murder Among Cast Members [ 1 Answers ]

I am looking for a movie I saw on television in the 80's or 90's. Someone had been murdered, and the cast members of a stage play were all suspects. As each was questioned, he or she remembered back to their contacts with the deceased. I remember a female member of the cast was in her bra--no...

Return of deposit in case of a murder upstairs [ 4 Answers ]

My daughter and her boyfriend currently live in an apartment in Worcester, MA. Last week a murder was committed in the apt above them. Then the murderers set fire to the apt to hide the crime. The firefighters had to break into my daughter's apt to put out the fire. There was some water damage....

The UK's 'The Murder Game' [ 2 Answers ]

Anyone know if there's any plans for the BBC to do a second series of 'The Murder Game' or if it's been shelved? Not sure what the ratings were for the first series but I enjoyed it. Anyhoo...


View more questions Search