[classyT]

I personally believe there are big differences in the Catholic faith compared to protestant. Now I realize under different protestant denominations there are plenty of different doctrines but, in general about the fundementals of Christainity, I think there is more common ground then with Catholicism. I know catholics who do not call themselves Christian.. they prefer catholic. Now that isn't a great big deal but the fact that they pray to Mary, confess to a priest, believe in purgatory, have no assurance in salvation ( some don't even know what saved means) and the list goes on... I think it is different than Christianity. I understand that they believe that Jesus is GOD he died and rose again but for the most part.. I see a big difference.

And by the way, PLEASE do not take offense by any of this.. I am just asking. I'm not putting catholicism down... Fr_Chuck disagrees with me and I just thought I'd asked for some opinions.

[starfirefly]

[QUOTE=classyT;1318791] Now that isn't a great big deal but the fact that they pray to Mary, confess to a priest, believe in purgatory, have no assurance in salvationQUOTE]



I just don't understand what you mean by this, are you saying its wrong to prey to mary?

[classyT]

I am saying it isn't done in the protestant faith. As a Christian woman, I do NOT pray to Mary... I see no where in the Word where we are told to. My question is do you think Christians and Catholics are basically the same thing... I don't.

[starfirefly]

I think they are very different as well, I went to a catholic school and I also have christian friends and just having conversations with them I can see there are many differences. I do not know why catholics pray to mary, I personally don't, I have other beliefs ouside of the catholic religion, so I guess you could say I'm not truly a catholic, I believe you need to come to religion on your own, being pushed into something will not make you a full believer... sorry I went a little off topic there

[Tj3]

I am saying it isn't done in the protestant faith. As a Christian woman, I do NOT pray to Mary....i see no where in the Word where we are told to. My question is do you think Christians and Catholics are basically the same thing...i don't.

Indeed scripture says that it is an abomination to communicate with the dead.

Deut 18:9-13
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you.
NKJV

[Fr_Chuck]

1. Catholics don't pray to Mary, those that believe so have been lied to what the catholics do, there were a few sects within the church that did at some point but Mary and the other Saints are asked to go to Jesus for the other person, A "pray list" of such. No difference than a Baptist asking their next door neighbor to pray for them, we ask Mary to also pray for us.

In fact it is the Catholic Church that was the first church and the only church for 1100 years till they split with the Orthodox Church, and the then they were the two churches till Luther split, and even he did not want to split but did so with the help of the German princes for more political than religious issues.

But actually if you look at the Anglican ( church of England) and all related churches, they are so closer to Catholic than baptist or the Penticostal are.

In fact much of what you call the Protestant churches are much newer creatures that have came about over new meanings that man has determined of the scripture.

And I guess by the above, Jesus sinned when he talked to Moses on the Mount?

One has to really be careful taking one verse very out of context, since the above calls Jesus a sinner, which we know he can not be??

The Catholic church, helped save and form the bible we have today, the early synods of the Church are the basic for almost all Christian churches, the creeds are used in Lutheran, Methodist and more.
It was and is the first and largest of the Christian churches.

[Fr_Chuck]

I moved this to the discussion since the very theme sort of violates the christianity rules, no negative on anothers christian faith.

[Choux]

Darn, I wrote a good answer and the question came up deleted, or whatever.

Anyway, historically, the Catholic Church was about believers needing a person to intercede between them and God... a priest, or a blessed person. Mary was and is a favorite.

"Hail Mary! full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
blessed art thou among women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God, *pray for us sinners* now and at the hour of our death, Amen"

One of the greatest changes the Reformation made was allowing that illiterate believers could pray to God directly... an intercession was not necessary.

[Tj3]

1. Catholics don't pray to Mary, those that believe so have been lied to what the catholics do, there were a few sects within the church that did at some point but Mary and the other Saints are asked to go to Jesus for the other person, A "pray list" of such. No difference than a Baptist asking their next door neighbor to pray for them, we ask Mary to also pray for us.

The Pope disagrees. Here is a quote straight from the Vatican website:

"Dear brothers and sisters, dear friends who are taking part in this celebration this morning, let us pray this prayer to Mary together. In the face of the sad spectacle of all the false joy and at the same time of all the anguished suffering which is spreading through the world, we must learn from her to become ourselves signs of hope and comfort; we must proclaim with our own lives Christ's Resurrection." (Source: Solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, 15 August 2008 - Homily of Pope Benedict XVI )

And I could provide mounds of additional backup from catholic sources. If we have been lied to, then we have been lied to from the highest levels of the leadership in the Roman Catholic Church.

In fact it is the Catholic Church that was the first church and the only church for 1100 years till they split with the Orthodox Church, and the then they were the two churches till Luther split, and even he did not want to split but did so with the help of the German princes for more political than religious issues.

The Roman Catholic Church did not exist as a single unit until 325 AD.

But actually if you look at the Anglican ( church of England) and all related churches, they are so closer to Catholic than baptist or the Penticostal are.

Agreed. That is because they are in fact Catholic. Henry VIII did not change anything but who was at the top, and any differences have occurred simply through evolution of the two denominations as they went on two different paths.

And I guess by the above, Jesus sinned when he talked to Moses on the Mount?

I assumed that you mean when He was transfigured into His gloried form as God? Why would it be a sin for God to speak to the dead?

[Choux]

That's right Tom, after discussions with Rome, Henry the VIII made himself the head of the church in England. English Catholic clergy and believers were required to chose Henry, not the Pope.

This caused lots of problems. His daughter, Mary, Queen of Scots was Catholic and his other daughter, Elizabeth I was a protestant... and so on :D

[Credendovidis]

I think there is more common ground then with Catholicism. I know catholics who do not call themselves Christian ..they prefer catholic.

You are as usual nitpicking here... All Roman Catholics see themselves as Christians too.

A Christian is someone who accept "God" as the "Creator" , and "Jesus Christ" as "Saviour".
As to the rest : there are presently almost 3000 different Christian Church organizations and denominations, all following their own selection of the "one and only true belief".

If that is correct, almost 2999 Christian Church organizations and denominations must have it wrong. Nonsense of course !

I wonder what drives so many millions of people into this intolerant view. You believe your way, others believe their way, and if what you all believe is correct, than "God" will decide who is what.

Why interfere with how other people interpret their Christian belief? Please stop this intolerance and "wise-acring"!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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[Tj3]

I wonder what drives so many millions of people into this intolerant view. You believe your way, others believe their way, and if what you all believe is correct, than "God" will decide who is what.

Why interfere with how other people interpret their Christian belief? Please stop this intolerance and "wise-acring"!

As usual, John, rather than substantiating your view, you attack those who disagree with the "intolerant" label. That, to me, seems to be intolerant of those who hold views which disagree with you.

[Credendovidis]

As usual, John, rather than substantiating your view, you attack those who disagree with the "intolerant" label. That, to me, seems to be intolerant of those who hold views which disagree with you.

Tommy : and that from the man who asked me to perform some form of blasphemy by starting my own Christian church.
( See : Working on Sunday (2) LINK )

And I thought you always claimed to be a Christian yourself...

:D :D :D :D :D :D

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[Tj3]

Tommy : and that from the man who asked me to perform some form of blasphemy by starting my own Christian church.
( See : Working on Sunday (2) LINK )

John, that is only because you seem to think that you alone are the one person who knows and can dictate what Christian doctrine is (based solely upon your opinion) - as shown by the discussion in that same thread that you linked to. And, I might add, this is despite the fact that both Catholics and non-Catholics have tried to correct you, but you won't listen.

And I thought you always claimed to be a Christian yourself...

Indeed I am!

[Credendovidis]

Indeed I am!

Tommy : if you were a real Christian you would not ask me (a committed Atheist) to perform some form of blasphemy by starting my own Christian church.

( See : Working on Sunday (2) LINK )

:D :D :D :D :D :D


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[Tj3]

Tommy : if you were a real Christian you would not ask me (a committed Atheist) to perform some form of blasphemy by starting my own Christian church.

Then stop claiming to be the only person who can declare who is and is not a Christian and what is and what is not Christian doctrine in contradiction to a Christian standards of doctrine.

Most folk who think that they alone are able to make such proclamations start their own churches, religions or cults, and if that is what you are doing, then I am suggesting that you might as well follow the logical course.

And I note that once again, you are trying to hijack two threads at once.

[classyT]

You are as usual nitpicking here ... All Roman Catholics see themselves as Christians too.

A Christian is someone who accept "God" as the "Creator" , and "Jesus Christ" as "Saviour".
As to the rest : there are presently almost 3000 different Christian Church organizations and denominations, all following their own selection of the "one and only true belief".

If that is correct, almost 2999 Christian Church organizations and denominations must have it wrong. Nonsense of course !

I wonder what drives so many millions of people into this intolerant view. You believe your way, others believe their way, and if what you all believe is correct, than "God" will decide who is what.

Why interfere with how other people interpret their Christian belief? Please stop this intolerance and "wise-acring"!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

Hello? Do I know you?. what do you mean nitpicking as usual? I was simply asking a question as to how close the catholic faith and christian faith were.. I wasn't being rude, unkind or intolerant. I wasn't IMPLYING anything... I thought it would make for a good discussion. Fr_Chuck and I were debating it a little and thought it would make for a good discussion on the Christian discussion board.

Gessh.. I hope you feel better

[JoeT777]

I personally believe there are big differences in the Catholic faith compared to protestant. Now i realize under different protestant denominations there are plenty of different doctrines but, in general about the fundementals of Christainity, I think there is more common ground then with Catholicism. I know Catholics who do not call themselves Christian... they prefer catholic. Now that isn't a great big deal but the fact that they pray to Mary, confess to a priest, believe in purgatory, have no assurance in salvation ( some don't even know what saved means) and the list goes on...i think it is different than Christianity. I understand that they believe that Jesus is GOD he died and rose again but for the most part..i see a big difference.

And by the way, PLEASE do not take offense by any of this..i am just asking. I'm not putting Catholicism down....Fr_Chuck disagrees with me and I just thought I'd asked for some opinions.

I think Fr. Chuck answered some of the specific charges made here, so I won’t answer to those issues. Instead, with your permission, I’d like to pose a few of my own question.

Where do you think “Protestantism” came from? From where did some 30,000 different Christian Denominations get their Scriptures, with each insisting it has the one and only authoritative interpretation? How do they recon Christ’s words, “That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” (Cf. John 17). How then do you or those 30,000, recon that hard saying, “I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven.” (Cf. John 6). How that with your limited knowledge, not an insult – just a matter of human limitation, can say with more authority than Christ’s vicar what substance of faith threatens our morality, our souls?

The Catholic faith is a big deal, a big eternal deal, as it should be to you. To explain, I’ll give you the response Augustine once gave, "But should you meet with a person not yet believing the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe? For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church." St. Augustin, AGAINST THE EPISTLE OF MANICHAEUS CALLED FUNDAMENTAL.(1)[CONTRA EPISTOLAM MANICHAEI QUAM VACANT FUNDAMENTI.] A.D. 397. Chp 5 How would you ansewer St Augustin's question? Are Scriptures really open to private interpretation?

We Catholics (who are Christian by the way) find that "This is the sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Savior, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care (Jn. 21:17), commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it (cf. Matt. 28:18, etc.), and which he raised up for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines. Since these are gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, they are forces impelling towards Catholic unity." (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Genitum, 8)

And I do, constantly, pray to Mary, Joseph and all the saints for us.

JoeT

[Tj3]

Where do you think “Protestantism” came from? From where did some 30,000 different Christian Denominations get their Scriptures, with each insisting it has the one and only authoritative interpretation?

I trust you know what the logic fallacy "strawman" argument is. That is what you argument is. First, and we have been through this before, you do not understand what sola scriptura is - you keep repeating that false accusations put forward by your denomination.

Second, you should study the growth of the various denominations sometime. Though some denominations came about because of doctrinal disagreements, probably most were for much different reasons and only a minority claim that they alone have the sole and only authoritative interpretation of the Bible (the biggest one that comes to mind which claims that their private interpretation is the sole authoritative one is your denomination)

How do they recon Christ's words, “That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” (Cf. John 17).

Jesus was praying to the Father and asked God the Father to answer prayer, not us. Jesus also asked that we all (individual Christians) be one, not denominations. Jesus' prayer was answered when the father sent the Holy Spirit to indwell all believers. All believers are one in the Holy Spirit.

Man does not answer prayers to God. And Jesus did not pray to Mary or any of the saints (nor, for that matter did any godly person in scripture)

[JoeT777]

I trust you know what the logic fallacy "strawman" argument is. That is what you argument is. First, and we have been through this before, you do not understand what sola scriptura is - you keep repeating that false accusations put forward by your denomination.

Second, you should study the growth of the various denominations sometime. Though some denominations came about because of doctrinal disagreements, probably most were for much different reasons and only a minority claim that they alone have the sole and only authoritative interpretation of the Bible (the biggest one that comes to mind which claims that their private interpretation is the sole authoritative one is your denomination)



Jesus was praying to the Father and asked God the Father to answer prayer, not us. Jesus also asked that we all (individual Christians) be one, not denominations. Jesus' prayer was answered when the father sent the Holy Spirit to indwell all believers. All believers are one in the Holy Spirit.

Man does not answer prayers to God. And Jesus did not pray to Mary or any of the saints (nor, for that matter did any godly person in scripture)

Yes I’ve noticed the exponential growth of the Protestant denominations. If Protestant’s have a moral authority, then why do their numbers continue to grow? Do they not claim they get their authority from the Holy Spirit? If so why is the Holy Spirit schizophrenic in His revelation; giving one denomination a set of moral virtues, and another denomination a different set of moral virtues?

JoeT