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 Originally Posted by Tj3
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Originally Posted by N0help4u
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Originally Posted by Wondergirl
It would be like God saying, "Youse guys have been so loving and kind lately and so full of goodness, so I'm gonna send My Son to die on the cross for you. What a peachy-keen bunch you are!"
Lets look at it more closely. So far so good. God gave us a free will gift. His Son. God was not obligated to save us. But He sent His only begotten Son to save us as a free will Gift. Is everyone saved? The whole world? No one is damned anymore no matter what they've done and whether they repented? Of course not. Only certain people are saved? Why? Because there are conditions to this gift. What are the conditions? 1. Believe and be baptized and you are saved. You must be born again into the family of God. 2. Repent!!! One must confess and repent of one's sins. 3. Eat My Flesh and drink My Blood. Faith alone won't save you, you must believe Jesus and act upon His Words no matter how hard they are to believe. 4. he who perseveres till the end will be saved You must persevere in your faith until the end. Salvation is a free will gift with conditions. Otherwise the entire world would be saved and that would not be justice.
Sorry, Charlie. It's not the same at all.
Now if the employees came in late and played Free Cell instead of doing their work and hung out in the cafeteria for hours at a time, then went home early, and the company owners gave them merit pay increases and gift certificates to local restaurants... that example is a lot closer to what God did for us in Christ.
Romans 6 1 What shall we say, then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?2 God forbid. For we that are dead to sin, how shall we live any longer therein? 3 Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? 4 For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. So, if you believe that you are free to sin because Jesus died on the Cross, then you are sorely mistaken. If we go back to the example, if we employees were to desist from work and begin to play all day and expect to still receive the Company's gifts, we would be sorely mistaken. In fact, there is one possible last gift we might receive. A pink slip. And that is what will happen to those who will continue to sin after Jesus' sacrifice. They will be cutoff and thrown into the fire.
Sorry, not true. The Bible says God sent His Son IN SPITE OF man's lack of love and faith--"while we were yet in our sins." That bumper sticker, "I found God" is all wrong. It should be, "God found me." God comes to each of us wherever we are.
Romans 11 22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Again, not true. Yes, faith without works is dead, but works don't save us. Only Christ's death on the cross saves us. The works are our thank you to God.
John 15 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. 6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and case him into the fire, and be burneth.
No conditions. Salvation is a free gift just like Grandma's birthday gift was.
And even then it would be conditional on your being her grand daughter. She wouldn't give your gift to a total stranger. You are a member of her family. Salvation is for the members of God's family. Those who have been born again of the spirit in Baptism.
Both were out of unconditional love. Neither God nor Grandma dangle strings alongside their gift.
It's really difficult to imagine that someone would give us something that's totally free, isn't it.
Even if its impossible to payback, you should at least try. It seems astonishing to me that anyone should accept such a gift and then say, "I don't need to do anything." "God has taken on flesh and died for my sins, but I'm too good to follow His steps even one inch."
We've always been warned to look behind the gift, to look for the condition, the string, the obligation. Nothing is free in this life, they say. Watch out for all those free offers--they're gimmicks to suck you in. I guess that's why people just can't believe God would give us something totally for free. That's not how the world operates. But then... God is not of this world and doesn't play by earthly standards and expectations, does He.
Jesus' died for everyone's sins right? Why won't they be saved? Or, why will they be saved if you believe they will? Sincerely, De Maria |
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Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Now you want a nonappreciative response?
That wasn't the question on the table at the time, so I will write another Grandma example to illustrate that.
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Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I don’t doctor quotes; but if you’ll remind me where this is posted I’ll look up the reference for you. I can’t remember how I titled the post in my files. |
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Originally Posted by N0help4u
John 15 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. 6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and case him into the fire, and be burneth. What happens if you insult the gift: Hebrews 10 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound good to me. Now that is what happens if you accept the gift and don't use it and then if you accept the gift and disrespect it. What happens if you don't accept the gift at all: Romans 2 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them who do such things, and dost the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness, and patience, and longsuffering? Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance? 5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God. 6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Sincerely, De Maria |
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Originally Posted by De Maria
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Originally Posted by De Maria
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De Maria,
Maybe I missed it, but could you show me where you answered rhadsen's question in post #600? Perhaps I missed your answers. His questions were: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Early on in this thread I pointed out the fact that despite your claim about the rich man in Luke 16:24 being in Purgatory, none of the Fathers share your view. In your most recent post you indicated that they could not have used the term "purgatory" in their writings about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus because that word was not known to them, so they used the term "hell." Very well, if that's true, then some quotes by the fathers in which they describe the rich man as being in "hell temporarily" will suffice. Can you produce such quotes? Now, regarding the chasm in Luke 16:26. I mentioned that it seemed to indicate that the rich man's fate was sealed. You replied, "Does that say the chasm is fixed permanently? Where?" I'll freely admit that the text does not say that directly. But, turnabout is fair play. Can you show me where it says that the chasm isn't fixed permanently? Where? You also asked me if there was any love in the hell of the damned. I'll freely admit that there probably is not. However, this is a parable. Jesus is telling this story to get his point across. He may, or may not be telling the story about an actual historical event. He may or may not change some details to get his point across. Now, you may say that the rich man can't be in hell because there is no love there. However, consider the following details from the story: The Pharisees had a love of money. It appears that Jesus told this story about them in their presence. Part of God's will is that we help the poor. Will disregarding that will mean still being in God's grace and friendship? The rich man apparently was excessive and extravagant. He showed no concern for Lazarus despite the fact that it was clearly within the rich man's ability to help Lazarus. What does God say about that De Maria? 1 John 5:17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Matthew 25:21-46 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Does the rich man call Abraham "father?" Yes he does, but isn't it presumptious for him to do that when he ignored the example of Abraham? By his calling Abraham "father" despite not living with love for his neighbor, and his request for Abraham to send Lazarus on his own personal task, it seems that he is continuing in his disregard for others even after death. Rather than an apology to Lazarus, we see here a request for a special favor in the way of a visitor from the afterlife to warn his kin. The rich man still seems to think that he is in charge! Tell me De Maria, is disregard for God's will, disregard for the poor, consistent with being in God's grace and friendship? I did not say, "spirits must be modified to determine what it means." I did say that the word translated "spirits" unless modified represents non-human spirit beings. (I'm not sure how you mixed that up, maybe you are skimming instead of reading?) Since you seem to disagree De Maria, with my contention that 1 Peter 3:19 is not talking about humans, can you provide a verse in the New Testament where the word "spirits" not modified by an adjective or other word in the same sentence clearly indicates a deceased person? As you saw in the five verses that I provided (Matthew 12:45; Acts 23:8,9; Luke 10:20; Ephesians 2:2; Hebrews 1:14) there is no way one could misinterpret those verses as speaking about humans. Are you attempting to claim that Noah's contemporaries that died in the flood really were in God's grace and friendship by posting a translation that reads, "Which had been some time incredulous…."? Where exactly did you see me practicing , as you call it, "esegesis?" Regarding 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, De Maria, if those whose works don't burn end up with the same thing as those whose works burn, how is that a reward? -------------------------------------------------- |
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Originally Posted by De Maria
But as it stands to your second part of this statement there are 2 sets of verses I want to show you. Ephesians 2 Made Alive in Christ 1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. And Faith and Deeds James 2 14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. This shows a triangle _______Jesus _____/______\ ____/________\ __Faith ----- Grace __/____________\ Works________Free These two verses help to show the triangle, showing that we are saved by faith and grace but if we take out the work's our faith is dead and therefore we are not with Christ. But if we take it to the reverse and say it is by works that we work for grace to get to Heaven we are no longer depending on the Grace of God therefore we again are not with Christ. Now responding to Originally Posted by De Maria
(God said in many places in the bible that our punishment/judgement is death.) this for the christian faith means fisical death, for other regioions this means a spiritual death(hell) as well. |
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Faith alone won't save you
"By grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves"
you must believe Jesus
and must act upon His Words
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Originally Posted by Wondergirl
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The problem with respect to the question of faith and works comes when people do not understand the context of the original Greek words and only read it in English, and they then fall into the mis-understanding that De Maria fell into - and it is a common mis-understanding.
The word "Faith" and "Faithfulness" in Greek are the same word. So when scripture speaks of faith, we can also read it as "Faithfulness". The problem that De Maria and others who fell into this trap have is that they think that the works are required for salvation, whereas what these verses are saying is not that works are required for salvation, but rather that work demonstrate our faithfulness. Since faith and faithfulness are the same word in Greek, where scripture says that "Faith without works is dead", it is just as accurate to read it saying "Faithfulness without works is dead". Thus if you do you not live out our faith with works, then you are not faithful, and how then why we should we assume that you have faith if you are not faithful? |
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Faith and Works
Originally Posted by Lilmkiss
In some ways I agree. The Vatican Council (III, 3) says that "faith is a supernatural virtue by which we with the inspiration and assistance of God's grace, believe those things to be true which He has revealed". I often think of works as a requitement of faith; or a cooperation between faith and works. It takes both acceptance and cooperation with God’s grace of Truth salvation to be efficacious. Based on Scripture, it’s not the nature of God to strike us dumb with an irresistible faith. However, I find Catholic faith in God quite different from the ‘struck by lightning’ knowledge that waits for a predestined salvation. There are many Protestants that have this type of faith, i.e. once saved always saved. On the other hand, Catholics hold ‘faith’ in God to be those truths revealed by God in Scripture and in the Tradition of the Church (objective faith). Faith can also be those things we hold true that are beyond our understanding, but within the natural light of reason (subjective faith). This latter type of faith requires a supernatural strengthening of natural light. "Quid est enim fides nisi credere quod non vides?" (What is faith but belief without seeing?). In either event intellectual reasoning has an element of faith that requires participation. We can’t forget that the four gospels are first and foremost theology; not special codes like the Mosaic Law. Luther, like others, chose to turn away from the harmony in the scriptures substituting rationalism. But, reason outside the confines of apostolic teaching is bound to produce confusion that results in the denial of the oneness of faith. ( Cf. John 17:9-10) Many of your arguments conform to the Catholic faith. However, the subtle deviations miss the essence of the two natures of Christ, man and God; faith and works. Christ may have died for our sins, (an act of God’s mercy), but he lived along with his mother and disciples not only to hear or speak the word of God, but to personify, “do it” – unquestionably a “work” as defined by most Protestant faiths. (cf Luke 8:21) Christ not only lived the old covenant, he was a redeemed faith, marked with faith-blood that “worked” internally and externally. The word of God was grafted into his being as a Jew. Was not the Christ’s crucifixion a “work” in the spirit of Yom Kippur, atonement for our sins? Forgiveness of sins was a unique concept hitherto unknown to the Jewish faith. Was it not Christ who lived the Jewish High Holydays of the Sukkuot (Tabernacles)? Was it not a “work” when Jesus transfigured before Peter, John and James. Was the procession to the temple where the people waived palms and shouted “Hosanna” a “work”? Being both the priest offering the sacrifice while simultaneously being the sacrifice. This single act transformed both heaven and earth; the old covenant did not have forgiveness of sin. (cf Lev. 17:11, Rom 3:25 and Heb. 8:7? Was it not Zechariah’s vision on Rosh Hashoanah? During Rosh Hashanah the practice of Tahilikh (the casting off sins) was observed. The prophecy tells of God rising up a horn of salvation “to perform the mercy promised to our fathers and to remember His holy covenant” (a work). Couldn’t we even say that Christ’s birth in late December a “work” found in the Jewish Hanukah – the lighting of the menorah? Christ even waits till the feast of Hanukah to proclaim, “The Father and I are one.” (the light of the world). Jesus lived his faith and the traditions of his faith like no other man; obedient to the point of sweating blood, to the point of death. When read with the apostolic teachings of the Catholic Church we can see that Christ lived and worked his faith both internally and externally. He didn’t simply “believe” in God, he was a “doer” of God’s words. So, it’s no wonder that James gives us the same advice, “[W]ith meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was.” (James 1:21-24.) Jesus didn’t come to the Jews and say, “I think: I believe: therefore I am - so follow me.” So, in our poor attempt to emulate Christ, Paul tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. (cf Phil 2:12). In short live your faith; believing is simply not enough. "and only when necessary use words;" (who said that?- or did I even get the quote right -I can't recall) JoeT |
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Originally Posted by JoeT777
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De Maria,
You may have overlooked it as this thread is seeing a lot of activity, but I asked you some questions in post #140 and asked them again in post #600. Have you had a chance to take a look at them? Rob |
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Originally Posted by Wondergirl
JoeT |
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Originally Posted by rhadsen
Sincerely, De Maria |
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Originally Posted by rhadsen
Since the Church Fathers you referenced seem to be using the terminology "hades", isn't it imperative that you prove that they don't mean the abode of the dead but the abode of the damned? In addition, since the topic of this discussion is "Purgatory". Shouldn't you first prove that the Church Fathers did not believe in the concept of Purgatory, whether, they used that word to describe it? The Roots of Purgatory The Roots of Purgatory
Now, regarding the chasm in Luke 16:26. I mentioned that it seemed to indicate that the rich man's fate was sealed. You replied, "Does that say the chasm is fixed permanently? Where?"
I'll freely admit that the text does not say that directly. But, turnabout is fair play. Can you show me where it says that the chasm isn't fixed permanently? Where? Therefore, since the rest of the verses are about a faithful son of Abraham who is suffering in fire for his sins of ommission, I infer that it is Purgatory. So, it is you must prove FROM SCRIPTURE. Not I. Follow?
You also asked me if there was any love in the hell of the damned. I'll freely admit that there probably is not.
However, this is a parable.
But this is a narrative. The protagonist is named. And Church tradition tells us the name of the other person. His name is Dies. Therefore, again, although you are stuck searching for truth in the Scriptures alone. Tradition helps me to fill in the gaps.
Jesus is telling this story to get his point across. He may, or may not be telling the story about an actual historical event. He may or may not change some details to get his point across. Now, you may say that the rich man can't be in hell because there is no love there. However, consider the following details from the story:
The Pharisees had a love of money. It appears that Jesus told this story about them in their presence. But not all Pharisees were abusing their position. Certainly a significant number were, but not all.
Part of God's will is that we help the poor. Will disregarding that will mean still being in God's grace and friendship? The rich man apparently was excessive and extravagant. He showed no concern for Lazarus despite the fact that it was clearly within the rich man's ability to help Lazarus. What does God say about that De Maria?
1 John 5:17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Matthew 25:21-46 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Now, let me ask you. Have you ever walked past a poor man without giving him something to eat or drink? I know that I have. And I know that many in this United States have done so. Does that mean we will go to hell? On the other hand, even Jesus said, "Mark 14 7 For the poor you have always with you: and whensoever you will, you may do them good: but me you have not always." So, there is really not enough information in this narrative in order to condemn the Rich Man eternally. Do you know if he is a faithful husband? A faifhful and loving son to his father and moter? A good citizen paying his taxes and dues? Yet if this man fails in feeding one poor man, is he condemned to eternal damnation? Does that sound fair to you? It doesn't sound fair to me and to be perfectly honest, I will probably have the same destiny as the Rich Man. Since I fare sumptuously everyday and yet I'm aware of much starvation throughout the world. So, if you are correct, I am already condemned to eternal fire. Where do you stand? Have you helped everyone that you can help? Or have you also ignored the poverty at your doorstep?
Does the rich man call Abraham "father?" Yes he does, but isn't it presumptious for him to do that when he ignored the example of Abraham? By his calling Abraham "father" despite not living with love for his neighbor, and his request for Abraham to send Lazarus on his own personal task, it seems that he is continuing in his disregard for others even after death. Rather than an apology to Lazarus, we see here a request for a special favor in the way of a visitor from the afterlife to warn his kin. The rich man still seems to think that he is in charge! Tell me De Maria, is disregard for God's will, disregard for the poor, consistent with being in God's grace and friendship?
Obviously, like all humans in distress, Dives is calling out to those he thinks love him and will have compassion on him. This is not what one would expect of any soul in perdition.
I did not say, "spirits must be modified to determine what it means." I did say that the word translated "spirits" unless modified represents non-human spirit beings. (I'm not sure how you mixed that up, maybe you are skimming instead of reading?) Since you seem to disagree De Maria, with my contention that 1 Peter 3:19 is not talking about humans, can you provide a verse in the New Testament where the word "spirits" not modified by an adjective or other word in the same sentence clearly indicates a deceased person? As you saw in the five verses that I provided (Matthew 12:45; Acts 23:8,9; Luke 10:20; Ephesians 2:2; Hebrews 1:14) there is no way one could misinterpret those verses as speaking about humans.
Are you attempting to claim that Noah's contemporaries that died in the flood really were in God's grace and friendship by posting a translation that reads, "Which had been some time incredulous…."?
I am claiming that Noah's contemporaries which were described as "some time incredulous" were in an imperfect state of God's grace and friendship. That is precisely why they were in prison and not in eternal damnation. Where exactly did you see me practicing , as you call it, "esegesis?"
Regarding 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, De Maria, if those whose works don't burn end up with the same thing as those whose works burn, how is that a reward?
Perhaps if you compare to this parable. For the sake of brevity, please read Matt 20:1-16. Sincerely, De Maria |
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Originally Posted by Tj3
James 2 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? And that isn't where the Catholic understanding ends. Although the Protestant understanding falls short even of that understanding. If we go to Romans 2, we see that not only are good works rewarded. But sins or evil works are punished. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. The juxtaposition of these concepts makes it very clear. Those who work evil will go to hell. Those work good will go to heaven. Very simple concept, but the reality doesn't work out that simply does it. Most of us do both. So, there must be an accounting: Matthew 12 36 But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment. Simply asking saying, "Lord, Lord forgive me" doesn't cut it. You must make amends: Acts Of Apostles 26 20 But to them first that are at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and unto all the country of Judea, and to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should do penance, and turn to God, doing works worthy of penance. Matthew 3 8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance. Oh, I know, that is what the Catholic Bible says. Lets look at the NIV, a popular Protestant Bible: Matt 3 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. Acts 26 20First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. Sincerely, De Maria |
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