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cyberheater · Jul 22, 2009, 12:12 PM

I could use a bit of advice.

MN location.

I have to break up concrete and install a basement bathroom.

I am putting a sink on the opposite side of the toilet and the shower will
Be almost between the two and off to the side with a half wall next to shower.
3"Stack is next to shower and runs from upstairs bathroom and up thru roof.
I have existing venting next to the upstairs sink that the laundry vent is connected to and another vent attached to the tub drain (wet vent). The best way to vent this whole set up?

sink <--------------------------------->toilet
x x

3" stack----shower
Next to stack is upstairs venting/etc.

I have about 9 feet between toilet and sink from behind.
I have about 7.5 feet from stack to opposite wall.
I have ducting above the sink area.

Help for me?:D

massplumber2008 · Jul 22, 2009, 01:46 PM

Hi Cyberheater...

Glad to help when I get back in from late night working tonight.

Perhaps someone else will pop in and help between now and then but if you check back in early AM I should be able to draw something up that will help.

Confirm that wet venting is allowed in your area. Confirm that this is a first floor bathroom and tell me if the pipes will be accessible from underneath in the basement... O.K?

MARK

cyberheater · Jul 22, 2009, 04:22 PM

ADDED: Went venting is indeed allowed, as I had thought - you can wet vent from a lav vent to a shower/tub.

Okay - this is a bathroom in the basement.
The drians and venting is reachable from underneath the first floor. I can access the vent pipe that feeds in above the 1st floor bathroom.

I am checking on wet venting. Did this before, but have to check in this county too. SEE ABOVE

The 3" stack and lav drain and vent will be close to the shower wall.

Will be tiling and using kerdi system there for the shower (4x4).

There is old plumbing for a semi bathroom down there now, but ad hoc version and not manageble to use. So breaking up concrete and running new drains is necessary.

it is appx 9 feet wide by 8 feet long.

The 9 feet direction will have a sink on the left wall and a toilet on the right wall. The shower will be built from the right wall (4 x 4) up agaist a wall I will build just below the wet wall from upstairs. Here at this location the plumbing is as follows from about mid of room to right wall

Stack w/angled vent (yoke) to the vent that goes up next to sink upstairs. This vent also has the laundry tub vented here as well. Then you see the tub drain trap with a vent taped into it just to the side and up along side of that. That one vent (next to the tub) and the stack both run through the roof. Late 1950's house.

So - I am double checking on the wet vent. Normally - or before I know I could wet vet into the lav. (here we can) but I don't know yet if I can into the shower drain. The lav is going to be opposite wall from the toilet, so I know I can't do that in this situation.
I can run a vent up from the sink and to mid of room (joist run that way) and then run up from the toilet (connected with wye from toilet) up to that mid point and from the run straight across to the existing vent. Seems kind of like I am doing more work then necessary.

Also - I can run a vent along the wall (horz) then tap into the vent for the new shower and from there tap into the lav vent for upstairs.

I am really feeling like your help is needed on this one. I am checking wet venting codes now. Will be back

Came back - added

massplumber2008 · Jul 23, 2009, 03:55 AM

Confirm the wet venting and I'll draw this up tonight.

MARK

cyberheater · Jul 23, 2009, 07:17 AM

here is an not so good diagram of the bathroom. The arrow shows where the plumbing from above bath accessible via basement.

okay: Sink on the left to the toilet on the right is appx 8 - 9 feet in distance from trap to
back of toilet.

The shower is located to the right of main stack (3inch) and will be 4x4 with center drain.
The right wall is the foundation wall (block) it's behind the toilet and rigth side of toilet.
The door will be just to left of the stack. (may cut off and put in new CO there and turn it so I don't have to build around it).

The arrows represent basic drainage path from fixture to fixture to stack.

I can wet vent the lav to the shower if the lav was closer, but it's not - and with
the laundry room being so close - this is the best way to lay this room out and have actual
room. There will be a partial wall on the right side of the shower as a divider wall.
ABOVE the sink is the duct work for supply and cold air return.

massplumber2008 · Jul 23, 2009, 08:59 AM

I couldn't upload your pic. For some reason...

Here is how I am interpreting this... see image.

You want to run 3" to the toilet...branch off the 3" with a 3"x2" wye rolled above the center of the drain and head that off to pick up the lavatory sink. Install a 2"x1.5" sanitary tee fitting at 18" to center for the lavatory and run the 2" up to another 2" vent upstairs.

You will also want to install another 3" vent upstairs.

You will also want to install another 3" wye to pick up the shower. The shower will need to have an individual 1.5" vent as described and it can run into the sink wall and connect into the 2" wye to pick up the shower. The shower will need to have an individual 1.5" off finish floor.

The lavatory will vent itself and wet vent the toilet. That is why the lavatory vent is 2" lavatory vent at 48" lavatory vent goes up and connects into a 2"...;) Again, the shower will have its own vent and it should probably connect into the lavatory vent and then the 2" changes direction you will want to use a 3" or larger vent.

Where the 3" long sweep 90.

Let me know if this all makes sense or if I misinterpreted something... O.K.?

MARK

cyberheater · Jul 23, 2009, 09:29 AM

Okay - close - I had to change it a little

The sink (may want dual) is on the other side, but it only makes a difference in your sketch at which point
It is further away from toilet and shower. Above the sink are ducts, but I can go above in an area.

What I think you are saying (and you stated well), is that I can take off the toilet using a 3" and 2" wye and go directly to the lav/sink and up the wall. (if dual sink - one drain and vented) Then run the 2" vent along the joist and cut over to the
vent that is located next to the sink that runs above on first floor. I could run it along the divider wall (brown strip) and then to that vent. Vent's have to be slopped too. 1/4 inch for 2" to the connection piont.

Then - have a individual vent from the shower to that connection also.
The toilet is on the foundation wall, so I will run supply lines along the ceiling(below floor above). So - I should not attempt to vent toilet separately and tie into the shower vent? Nice not having to do that!

Venting is yellow/drain wet vent red

Yellow runs above

massplumber2008 · Jul 23, 2009, 03:46 PM

Let's see if this is any better..? Everything sounded fine... just wanted to clear some things up.

The 2" lavatory waste/vent will vent the toilet so as you said, no need for individual vent for toilet, but the fitting for the lavatory needs to be within 8 liner feet of the toilet elbow.

The 1.5" shower vent will connect into the 2" lavatory vent up in the ceiling and the 2" vent will continue upstairs will it will connect into a 2" or larger pipe at 48" minimum off the finished floor. Otherwise, you will run both the 2" and the 1.5" vent upstairs individually and then connect them upstairs as mentioned.

The rest of the info. Is stated in the pictures below. Please read the boxed information.

There is a waste diagram on left and a vent diagram on the right.

Let me know if you have questions...

MARK

.

cyberheater · Aug 28, 2009, 04:58 AM

Great Diagram! Thank you. I am sorry it took me so long to thank you, but I have had a few "ohs' in this that i am trying to work out.

opened the floor, and started to dig and I have water coming up from the earth below.
(no broken pipe) Definately a water problem. I am looking for the best pump to use so that as I dig, I need something pumping it out and I can actually attach the pipes without them becoming wet. There is old clay drain tile, but no palmer valve or connection that I can see from where i have the floor busted up. It's obviously not working and it's going to rain today again.

I do have another question, I have to figure out now how to hook up the floor drain/laundry waste connection. With the best fittings to the main soil line. I putting a diagram on here. I know I could figure this out my self, but I am knee deep in muck and thinking I am really in a awful hole. Can I ask to help me with this?

I have a existing set up/ and then the new bath add. The orange is a very rough new bath with the black being the old set up. Going to replace the old floor drain and laundry drain/venting. It's all cast iron. I was hoping to be able to leave part of that drain connected to old iron in the existing line running out, but there are so many iron connections from the main stack/soil running up to the utility line waste connection, that I fear I will have to just cut her all out. Geez.

I need the best way to connect the new bathroom to the main line running out with the 3" fittings. I am going to have to dig down a lot to get her out from the main soil stack.

Got it:D

massplumber2008 · Aug 28, 2009, 10:50 AM

I just popped in and saw this cyberheater...

Let me know if we can help!

MARK

cyberheater · Aug 31, 2009, 03:23 PM

Okay - now I see I have a 4" sewer drain that leads to a 3" vertical main soil stack.

The 4" is after the floor drain connection. I am wondering if I shouldn't go 4" at the new connection just before with the test tee.

It's a one story home with a basement. The new basement bath will connect just after the stack connecting at the horizontal sewer line.

Any collabration? Should I just replace everything with 3" to the 4" with a reducer?

What would be best?
Cast iron to pvc

cyberheater · Sep 1, 2009, 09:19 AM

Here I go again!

Can't get any one in the city to tell me if I need a backwater valve or not, and I need to get going here. I have all the cast iron out and I have to tie 2" floor drain waste pipe as well. I am at the point where I am thinking I should just install the darn thing so I can
get going.

I am replacing the old bathroom set up and running new waste lines, etc to the right of the
laundry/floor drain set up. I took everthing out because the old waste line from the floor drain wouldn't allow me much room to connect after all the old fittings. Here is my new diagram. The bathroom is appx 9 x 8 9' going from top to bottom in the diagram.

My question is - is there another way to have the 2" drainfloor/laundry horiz. Waste tie into
The sewer line? If I have to place another connection after the main verticle stack - running horiz. I will almost have to break up more floor! What a waste.(which is really 4" now that I can see it by eye) If I position the backwater valve on the branch drain - It's really close with the shower/sink wyes connecting. Can I get some input on idea's on this? I would appreciate any input if you have the time.

I am thinking of making a connection from the floor drain/laundry waste pipe behind the main stack. The waste pipe will be 2" and at that point at the stack I am going four inches.

Or, I can leave everything 3" inches and put a reducer on the connection after I branch off for the bathroom. I have room for slope. I am trying to figure out the best fittings to use for this. I know I should know, but I guess trying to do too many things at once. There is a santirary tee I could use, but that would bring the vertical down very low. I found out I don't have to use a backwater valve.

speedball1 · Sep 2, 2009, 12:57 PM

What's your location and what Plumbing Code do you fall under?

cyberheater · Sep 3, 2009, 08:20 AM

I am in MN. Minnesota State plumbing code.

Thanks for trying to help.

cyberheater · Sep 4, 2009, 05:38 PM

I have encountered an issue. I have to reconnect the kitchen sink.

I have someone helping me, and went down to find this in the muck. Yes, I thought about my kitchen sink drain - but then forgot after sliding in the muck. Man - try removing your foot in this stuff - the whole boot stays in place.

Can I connect the old kitchen sink drain that is under slab into the new two inch shower drain? I draw up a sketch.

Thanks.

Here is a sketch. The orange line is the old kitchen sink drain coming from above down under where I am putting in new bathroom branch drainage.

I came down there today and said "Oh - OH" we need to re-route the kitchen drain.
With all the muck from the water in the dirt, didn't even see until I pump the water out and dug a bit more. Don't you love plumbing, muck and politics?

cyberheater · Sep 4, 2009, 05:54 PM

Ipc

speedball1 · Sep 5, 2009, 05:22 AM

Under the IPC you are allowed to wet vent in groups such as a bathroom group. They recently updated the code as of Jan 1st and now you can even take a fixture and wet vent it on a bathroom group even if it is not in the group

So wet vents are allowed in your area. You have vented the floor drain, the only fixture with a trap that doesn't have to be vented and you've installed a "S" trap on your laundry tub that will get the job turned down.
Since you're allowed wet vents in your area you can forget about laying out according to UPC.
Let's do away with some of those vents. The toilet wet vents through the lavatory so we can lose that one. The shower can connect to the utility drain line nand wet vent through the laundry sink vent, ( as soon as you replace the "S" trap with a vented "P" trap).

is there another way to have the 2" drainfloor/laundry horiz. Waste tie into
The sewer line?

I can't see one. You've used the shortest route and that's good plumbing practice.

I am thinking of making a connection from the floor drain/laundry waste pipe behind the main stack. The waste pipe will be 2" and at that point at the stack I am going four inches.

Works for me.

There is a santirary tee I could use, but that would bring the vertical down very low.

Sanitary tees under the slab are a no-no.
Good luck, Tom

Can you make a drawing with more detail? Size the pipes and show me where those other lines are coming from.( what's the left line draining?) It's not too good a idea to mix kitchen grease and garbage with grease and hair from a shower drain. Make me a better drawing . The way it looks now you're discharging major fixtures past a unvented shower trap. Regards, Tom

cyberheater · Sep 5, 2009, 09:27 AM

Thanks Tom.

I replaced older sketch with a more detailed one. The kitchen sink drain pipe is the old one. I can't replace it without tearing out existing finishes. It goes another 10 feet horizontally to left then goes straigth up to kitchen. It is also quite a bit lower when it crosses under the 3" waste pipe from the toilet. It comes just perfectly to the 2" shower waste line I just installed. Any suggestions? I was worried about mixing the kitchen with the shower line too - for the same reasons.

Also, I am having an issue with rolling my 3/2 wye at an exact 45 degree for venting the toilet off before the toilet bend. It's okay for the shower venting 2/2 wye. Any suggestions there as well?

speedball1 · Sep 5, 2009, 10:13 AM

You have more problems then just where to connect the kitchen drain. Let's start with the floor drain. As I stated in a earlier post,:

You have vented the floor drain, the only fixture with a trap that doesn't have to be vented and you've installed a "S" trap on your laundry tub that will get the job turned down.

The vent you took off the main should vent the sink off the top end of a sanitary tee.
You're running too many vents for your IPC code. The toilet can wet vent through the lavatory vent. ( It is vented isn't it? Because iit must have its own ) It doesn't show a vent on the last drawing you put up. You can eliminate the shower vent by connecting it to the utility sink line and allow it be wet vented by it.
I assume the kitchen sink will also have its own vent so if the shower drain line is the only available tie in point then I would go with it. Would it be possible to install a cleanout somewhere on the utility and kitchen drain line? Time to draw up another set of plans. Regards Tom PS. I really hate to keep raining on your parade.

cyberheater · Sep 5, 2009, 10:23 AM

You have vented the floor drain, the only fixture with a trap that doesn't have to be vented and you've installed a "S" trap on your laundry tub that will get the job turned down.

My intention was to use a 2/2 wye just before the floor drain for the laundry drain trap - and use a regular drain trap. (Sorry the pic looks more like an "S' trap). Can I use the 2/2 wye as the drain and then vent vertically - adding the trap? CAn I then (above that trap) add another connection for another trap for a stand pipe? (that was just added to the scheme of things).

The toilet wet vents through the lavatory so we can lose that one

I think the sink is 8 feet away. So The toilet is upstream from the lav on the other side of the room. The state code states that I can wet vent a shower and lav, but said nothing about toilet, so of course I thought - now a need to vent the toilet. Then It says under the state code that the distance from the water closet trap and a nearest vent cannot exceed 4 feet. ---grrr. Am I reading this all wrong?

Tom - you are not raining on my parade. I am just less normal sleeping hours and I appreciate you helping me with this.

How far can a vent be from the shower? I looked it up on the states site and it says 5 feet. I am have to check again, but it doesn't look like it will make it if I try to use the utility waste line, unless that means at connection to were it drains into the line. But I thought it was from the point of the trap of the shower.

The kitchen sink does have it's own vent. It's on the side up through the roof. No problems there. (sigh)

Going back to make sure my measurements are right. It would be so delightful to do it the way you suggest.

The new sink location is behind ducting. I tried to run it every way with 2" venting, and kept getting blocked, even with the tiniest slope. I would have to drop down again.