[Tj3]

there are hundreds of diffrences but so much more similarities, i know you didnt mean to cause offence but where i am from(was from moved due to violence) belfast northern ireland is ripped apart by this debate..

There are additional issues that exacerbated the situation in N. Ireland. Let's not further complicate this discussion by bringing politics and personalities into it. This thread discussion is focused on doctrine.

[Tj3]

ok iv been thinking some more and have more to add. first there was catholicism, and due to people not liking some of the abuses by the churhch the great schism happened , orthodox and catholicism, then in germany luther started the papal bull against the pope due to his abuses of power, basically peoples interpretations of the bible are what started christianity thats the diffrence two people read the same book and two difrent meaanings come from the same words there is no way to solve this arguement we juts have to agree to disagree

This has more to do with Catholicism using sources outside of the Bible including the Apochrypha, tradition and others as sources of doctrine.

As for different people's interpretations, you have a point there and that is specifically why scripture says that no man is to interpret scripture.

[insomniaticmeat]

OK but my point is, there are so many religeons and beliefs every single person in the world has difrent beliefs.. are muslims wrong? Are jews wrong ? Hindus? Budhists? I'm saying christians and catholics believe so many of the same things why are people hung up on the diffrences? To be honest I hate both of these religeons because of what they have done to my people, and the world.. its been around for 2000 years? What happened to people before they believed in god? The same thin that happens to us now. I have no problems with peopl ewho are religious most of them are decent people a lot nicer than some other people out there but I think it has become a major thing in peoples lives and this is wrong. People believe in religeon because it makes it easier to accept the fact that we are all going to die:) I ghope I haven't offended you and I wish I had your faith in religeon juts things I have seen have made me question things.

[Tj3]

OK but my point is, there are so many religeons and beliefs every single person in the world has difrent beliefs.. are muslims wrong? Are jews wrong ? Hindus? Budhists?

That is a different question, for a different thread. Feel free to start a new thread. But just ponder this - since Christianity is mutually exclusive with all these religions, it is impossible for all to be right.

I'm saying christians and catholics believe so many of the same things why are people hung up on the diffrences?

Because many of the difference go to heart of what Christianity is.

[insomniaticmeat]

And I now understand your point again apologies and thanks for your input .

[De Maria]

I personally believe there are big differences in the Catholic faith compared to protestant.

Do you mean, big differences between what Protestants teach and what the Catholic Church teaches? If so, I agree.

Now i realize under different protestant denominations there are plenty of different doctrines but, in general about the fundementals of Christainity, I think there is more common ground then with Catholicism.

The Catholic Church teaches the fundamentals of Christianity. No other Church teaches all of those fundamentals.

I know catholics who do not call themselves Christian.. they prefer catholic.

Either you don't understand them or they don't understand their faith. We are the original Christians. It is from the Catholic Church that all other Christian churches broke off.

Now that isn't a great big deal but the fact that they pray to Mary,

I know Fr_Chuck said we don't pray to Mary. But we do. I think he meant to say that we don't WORSHIP Mary. Which we don't.

Note that the Catholic Church is the only one that teaches the BIBLICAL meaning of the word "pray".

Genesis 12:13
Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

Here, Abram says, "I pray thee" to Sara.

Genesis 18:3
And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

Here Abraham says, "I pray thee" to the Lord.

Matthew 10:42
And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Matthew 10:41
He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward;...


Matthew 10:41
... and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Here we see that the Bible gives us examples of asking for assistance in the name of another.

confess to a priest,

Jesus gave His Priests the power to forgive sin:

John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

In order for them to forgive sin, one has to confess their sin to them.

believe in purgatory,

1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

I don't think any explanation is necessary. It is very straight forward.

have no assurance in salvation

That's your misunderstanding. We believe in a conditional assurance of salvation. Which is what Scripture teaches:

Philippians 2 12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

Romans 2 6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:

( some don't even know what saved means)

Not the way you mean it. We know we are saved when God says so. Not when we say so:

1 Corinthians 4 4 For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge not before the time; until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall every man have praise from God.

It is foreign to us to judge ourselves.

and the list goes on... i think it is different than Christianity.

It is very different from Protestant Christianity. But that is because Protestant Christianity has abandoned the teachings of Jesus Christ.

We can examine for instance, the idea of Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura contradicts Scripture. Simply speaking, Jesus Christ never wrote one letter of Scripture. But He built a Church (Matt 16:18), gave it the power to teach the nations (Matt 28:20) and established many other Traditions such as Baptism, Eucharist etc. to impart grace on the believers.

I understand that they believe that Jesus is GOD he died and rose again but for the most part.. i see a big difference.

And by the way, PLEASE do not take offense by any of this.. i am just asking. I'm not putting catholicism down... Fr_Chuck disagrees with me and I just thought I'd asked for some opinions.

I don't take offense. There was a time I didn't believe the Catholic Church either. I'm looking forward to your response.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

We are the original Christians. It is from the Catholic Church that all other Christian churches broke off.

Your denomination did not exist until 325AD. There were no denominatyions in the first century.

I know Fr_Chuck said we don't pray to Mary. But we do. I think he meant to say that we don't WORSHIP Mary. Which we don't.

In the book "Glories of Mary", One of the most endorsed doctors of the Roman catholic church states:

"The Holy Church commands a WORSHIP peculiar to MARY""

Note that the Catholic Church is the only one that teaches the BIBLICAL meaning of the word "pray".

Genesis 12:13
Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

Here, Abram says, "I pray thee" to Sara.

He did not pray to Sara, though. That is much different.

Jesus gave His Priests the power to forgive sin:

John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

He was not speaking to his "priests here. Have another look. He was speaking to disciples:

John 20:20
Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
NKJV

A disciple is a follower. Jesus also did away with the organizational priesthood. All believers are priests.

In order for them to forgive sin, one has to confess their sin to them.

Nope - that is found nowhere in scripture.

1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

This refers to those in Abraham's bosom who were there before the cross.

That's your misunderstanding. We believe in a conditional assurance of salvation. Which is what Scripture teaches:

Scripture is not conditional in its assurance of salvation.

John 6:37-38
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
NKJV

Not the way you mean it. We know we are saved when God says so. Not when we say so:

1 Thess 1:5-6
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV

We can examine for instance, the idea of Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura contradicts Scripture.

You keep saying this but never back it up. We are commanded not to go beyond what is written:

1 Cor 4:6-7
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
NKJV

Simply speaking, Jesus Christ never wrote one letter of Scripture.

So you deny the Holy Spirit inspiration of ALL scripture? Are you saying that if ONLY the Holy Spirit inspired it but Jesus did not physically put pen to paper, that it not as good?

But He built a Church (Matt 16:18),

Yes, but did not build a denomination.

gave it the power to teach the nations (Matt 28:20)

Yes.

and established many other Traditions such as Baptism, Eucharist etc. to impart grace on the believers.

Grace comes from God, not traditions or denominations.

[classyT]

De Maria,

Your post was most helpful. I can see now where some of these things catholics believe originated. I had NO idea where they got the idea of purgatory.. now I do. Thank you very much for your input. ( course I disagree with it.. but I appreciate it.)

[classyT]

Tj3,

I know this is off the subject a bit but I'd love to know your thoughts on the verse in Peter where it says Christ preached to the spirits in prison.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I know this is off the subject a bit but i'd love to know your thoughts on the verse in Peter where it says Christ preached to the spirits in prison.

This one is well understood. In Luke 16, we find Jesus describing the location known as Hades and Abraham's Bosom.

Luke 16:22-25
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
NKJV

Note that it was only those who were unsaved who were in torment in hell, whereas across from the gap, the godly men such as lazarus were located awaiting the time of the cross when the price for their sins would be paid on the cross. In Abraham's bosom, these men were in a comfortable place awaiting the time when Christ would come and take them to heaven.

When Christ died on the cross and came to release these men to heaven we read:

1 Peter 3:18-21
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV

Because they looked forward to the coming of the Messiah:

Heb 11:13
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
NKJV

They were therefore saved through the blood of Christ, though the blood had not yet been shed. We see nothing more of Abraham's bosom after this point because Christ freed all those who were saved and took them into heaven.

[classyT]

Tj3,

I don't mean to sound dense. But you think that he was preaching to the 8 souls that were saved... or to all of those who were saved from Adam on down.

I totally get and understand the story of Lazarus and the great gulf.. one side of torment the other a place of rest. But I got confused because he said he preached to the spirits in Prison which I assumed was the torment side and I couldn't imagine what he could have preached . It makes sense that he is talking about the ones who are waiting to be taken to heaven. OK... gotcha.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I don't mean to sound dense. But you think that he was preaching to the 8 souls that were saved... or to all of those who were saved from Adam on down.

All who died before the cross. The 8 souls refers to the comparison to those who had a place of refuge on Noah's Ark. This is a comparison to the remnant saved on the ark.

I totally get and understand the story of Lazarus and the great gulf.. one side of torment the other a place of rest. But I got confused because he said he preached to the spirits in Prison which I assumed was the torment side and I couldn't imagine what he could have preached . It makes sense that he is talking about the ones who are waiting to be taken to heaven. OK... gotcha.

Here is an article which may explain it better:

Resurrection Of The Dead - Chapter 10

[rhadsen]

1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

I don't think any explanation is necessary. It is very straight forward.

If you believe that 1 Peter 3:19 is referring to purgatory, then you believe God destroyed the earth with a flood to kill off those who where actually in God's grace and friendship - not the wicked as is commonly believed.


Rob

[wildandblue]

Wow tj3 post #110 we covered this recently in our bible study group and no one there explained it this well!
Also I think DeMaria explained well if she'd got here say 7 pages ago she could have saved us a lot of trouble!

[De Maria]

....
They were therefore saved through the blood of Christ, though the blood had not yet been shed. We see nothing more of Abraham's bosom after this point because Christ freed all those who were saved and took them into heaven.

That's kind of the point TJ. Purgatory is temporary.

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

All in Purgatory eventually wind up in heaven.

Rev 20

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Note how in the first resurrection, a few of the dead went straight to heaven. But the rest of the dead LIVED NOT AGAIN until the thousand years were finished.

Where did they go? We believe, to Purgatory.

...

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Now the dead are awakened again. And this time they are judged according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Note here the three distinctives. Death, hell and the lake of fire. Death and hell refer to the Hell of the damned, which is true death and hell refers to purgatory. These are tossed into the permanent Hell of damnation. Into eternal fire.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And those who were in Purgatory, were found in the book of life and went to heaven. But those who weren't went to Eternal Fire.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

Thats kinda the point TJ. Purgatory is temporary.

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

All in Purgatory eventually wind up in heaven.

The scriptural description of Abraham's Bosom is completely incompatible with the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory. For example, purgatory is supposed to be place of fire. Abraham's Bosom is the exact opposite.

Scripture says nothing about purification in purgatory. It is our hope and faith in Jesus which purifies.

Abraham's Bosom ceased when Jesus emptied it. Your denomination claims purgatory has people in it today.

Clearly these are not the same place.

[rhadsen]

De Maria,

Let's look at that text again:

in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days
of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight
persons, were brought safely through the water. (1 Peter 3:19,20 NASB)

Claiming that those who Christ made proclamation to in prison were actually
In God's grace and friendship goes against the very clear reason why God
Brought the flood. God tells us why he did it in Genesis:

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and
that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in
His heart. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the
face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the
sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." (Genesis 6:5-7 NASB)

It's clear from 1 Peter 3:19-20 that the folks that Christ made proclamation to "in prison" were connected to the account of Noah and the Ark. It's also clear why God sent the flood and destroyed those not in the Ark. Therefore to say that those that Christ was making proclamation to in prison were in God's grace and friendship is clearly mistaken.

Rob

[classyT]

All who died before the cross. The 8 souls refers to the comparison to those who had a place of refuge on Noah's Ark. This is a comparison to the remnant saved on the ark.



Here is an article which may explain it better:

Resurrection Of The Dead - Chapter 10

That did help and thanks. Are you this good on end time propehcies too? I could pick your brain all day... ha.

[De Maria]

Darn, I wrote a good answer and the question came up deleted, or whatever.

Anyway, historically, the Catholic Church was about believers needing a person to intercede between them and God...a priest, or a blessed person. Mary was and is a favorite.

"Hail Mary! full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
blessed art thou among women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God, *pray for us sinners* now and at the hour of our death, Amen"

One of the greatest changes the Reformation made was allowing that illiterate believers could pray to God directly...an intercession was not necessary.

What happened to the Our Father? Did the Church remove that prayer?

[Tj3]

That did help and thanks. Are you this good on end time propehcies too? I could pick your brain all day...ha.

I have studied it somewhat, and I am always glad to help where I can!