Could you put your Ph.D. program on hold and get a job (with a master's) for a while? Subsidize your academic loans? (You can do this once, I believe.) Would you work at a good job while in your Ph.D. program? (You'd have to, methinks.) Talk with creditors or a credit counselor to work out something to reduce your cc amounts?

If I pay child support right now, then I have to default on both my student loans AND our credit cards AND my vehicle; but I didn't plan on having my income cut in half at the drop of a hat either. I simply didn't think our situation would ever get this bad... I thought we were stable and close enough to at least communicate what the problems were and work towards a solution before our family dissolved. She agreed to wait for any kind of support if I took care of the debts, but with the low wages in my state I'd honestly make more money in college than I would at my job (sad but true; like I've posted, I took this job because we both agreed it was best for our family... it wasn't my decision alone... it was a family decision that we all agreed on, and if it wasn't then it's not my fault... I asked what everyone thought and if anyone wanted to stay in Fayetteville, and everyone agreed to move and that it would be best for us).


"What kind of thinking are you using to justify to anyone that you can take care of kids with no water, or food in your house? Again, your focusing on the wrong issues, and have been a long time."

I'm going to get a cheaper place. I've already found a cabin with all utilities paid for half what my rent alone is now. I'm going to go there at the end of February. I need to get my financial house in order or my/our credit is going to be ruined and the creditors will start calling BOTH of us.

Also, if my situation is sorry, imagine what her situation will be like once her mother tires of supporting her. She has a minimum-wage job, she lost her healthcare benefits at work because she simply quit out of the blue, she has a high-school education and 3 children to care for by herself (one with autism, which is an extra burden... let me tell you!). The only reason she's surviving is because her mother/step-father are supporting her and she lives in their house... and like I've posted a million times, they're not stable... these people move around like nomadic herdspeople... I've never seen anything like it and I worry that my children will now be forced into that unstable lifestyle because their mother can't afford to take care of them without her mother's help, and she has far fewer prospects to take care of them financially than I do. I'll get my financial house in order and then get my Ph.D. in three years, all the while making more than I do now with fewer bills... I honestly think in a few months she'll start to experience some of the hardships from the situation she's chosen, but it's going to take a little while. She hasn't felt any of the negatives from her decision yet, but once she does she might start opening up to at least communicating with me. That's also what hurts the most... want happiness? Simply get rid of Dad! Heck, they're disposable and you can always get another one... my children are growing up without a father because of her decision. They didn't want this either, and begged their mother to please not do this while she was packing. She's being extremely selfish in my opinion, and is looking out for no one but herself and what SHE wants. I'd go to counseling, I'd look at what I'd done wrong or could do better... I'm willing to work on both myself and our relationship. Difference is that she doesn't even want to talk much, though every once in a while she'll talk to me for a while about pertinent relationship details, which makes me wonder if she misses me every now and then. Come on people, it wasn't 13 years of belittling and ignoring her. For the past 8 I've been a dedicated family man. I gave up many of my dreams and goals for my family and my wife. I want to travel the world, spend a summer in Europe, have a second home in Belize, and earn my Ph.D. so I can teach and conduct research for an educational institution. I put those on hold and/or gave them up for my family and my wife.

Ok, so for now. I live 4 hours away and at this point I can't afford to drive up and see my children. However, once I get out of the house I'm currently in then I can. If I get into a Ph.D. program in Fayetteville then I'll be in a much better position to help with our children both distance-wise and financially. If I go to College Station (Texas A&M), then I'll be about 10 hours away and won't see my children but a few times a year... I don't like that idea but it would pay more...

I have a job with my master's degree... I had to have my master's to simply apply! Still, I qualify for food stamps with my family size and only my income. The longer I put off my Ph.D. the worse it's going to get. Once I have to pay child support while I'm working, I might as well kiss that dream goodbye. Earning a Ph.D. while working is practically impossible unless the program isn't worth getting into... you get out what you put in. The other thing is that my Ph.D. program will probably pay MORE than I currently make with my "professional" master's-level job! Sad, isn't it?

I hear what you're saying. I have a master's in counseling psych and know whereof you speak. And I live in the wealthier areas of Chicagoland. Was just ruminating...

I hear you. I also have to admit it's humbling to be forced into selling most of my belongings and furniture and live in a one-room cabin at the KOA campground... wasn't an advanced education supposed to prevent this sort of thing? I want a refund... :(

Woah, people... read this! It made my heart skip a beat. Honest interpretations? I really DO appreciate the honesty this board offers but this is the most painful time in my life I've yet to experience.

Danielle sent you a message.

Re: This weekend

"Hello. Yes, we plan on being there this coming weekend. The children will likely be at Daddy's. Nice to have your brother there. How is he?? Ok. Thanks for the invite. I just may take you up on it. Yes, we could probably do something. I do need some time away from my troubles. They have a way of multiplying, you know. I haven't been to a casino. I did go to the horse races with Daddy. That is cool about the cabin. I know that it really sucks to move and all. Is the cabin there in town?? Yes, I do not want that either. Neither of us needs financial ruin to top everything else. I know. I too would like to have been there until June at least. Didn't work out that way though. Do you want Lacey?? I have to give her up. She would like to be with you. The children wanted me to ask. They would like to visit her still. I really need to find a good home for her. I will get back to you soon. Thank you for being nice to me.
DANIELLE."



And ANOTHER:
(here is what I sent)
You know, it just occurred to me that I also messed up with something else. When you were staying out late with your friends all the time, I should have read between the lines and tried to see WHY you didn't want to come home instead of complaining about WHAT you were doing. Maybe had I taken care of business at home and tried to work on our relationship and see what YOU needed & wanted it might have been different. If you ever give me another chance please know that I'd try to make you as happy as possible instead of complaining, and try to be the husband you needed me to be. Danielle

(Here is what she responded with)
Today at 4:09pm
THANK YOU!! I wasn't out doing anything bad. I just wanted to be away from the constant ing and complaining. It made me feel sick to be there. I just wanted to escape. That was all it was. I will be down soon. Perhaps we can nicely discuss this.?


Ok, here is my interpretation. She has to give up the cat, right? Notice the sudden change in demeanor as well when compared to the earlier emails... it almost sounds like "her troubles have a way of multiplying." Guess what I think has happened? Her situation up there is falling apart or her mother is moving "yet again" or something of that nature. She is now admitting she just wanted an escape... she now wants to nicely discuss this? I feel warm all over and starting crying almost. She wants to spend time with me this weekend. I want to take her somewhere fun so I can show her that I'm not just old and boring. I love my wife and family, people... I really do.

Now I feel bad for the cat. Can you take her to the cabin?

I'm sure of it; however, I'm going to hold off on the cabin until after this weekend's visit. She sent another email which I am posting here:



Jan 26, 2009 3:37 PM Flag as Spam or Report Abuse [?] Subject:
RE: Hello
Body:
Hi there. I thank you for all you are saying. I know this really sucks. Listen, I can't get into all this right now. Perhaps tomorrow I will get back to you at length. I just got back from working. I am very tired. [Our daughter] has been sick also. Mother took her to the dr this afternoon. I will let you know about that also. I will get back to you soon. I'm not blowing you off or anything. I just need to be left alone for a bit. Thank you for understanding.
[Wife].

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: [Me]
Date: Jan 26, 2009 10:56 AM


Just wanted to stop by and tell you how much I love and miss you. You're such a beautiful woman, you haven't aged a day. I used to get so excited about you and I miss some of the awesome sexual experiences we had together. You were AMAZING and REALLY hot... I loved those moments and love thinking about them. I've never been so excited or so satisfied as when we had great loving. Wish I would have appreciated you more and taken care of your needs, because there's no one else I want. I love you, my wife. I came across a birthday card you gave me last year and I started crying... I couldn't hold it back. You said how much living with me was being loved every day, and how you looked forward to the rest of our lives. God knows I love you more than anyone, it just won't go away and I miss our family being together. Come back home, please, and we can work on our issues. I don't want to start over after 13 years... I just want you and our family together and happy.

Love,

[Me]


These emails have a distinct change in their tone and demeanor... I hope this means she might offer another chance. It at least sounds like she'll go out on a date with me and stay the night if things go well. I'm going to do everything I can to just have a good time and enjoy my wife's company and show her I love and respect her. Anyone have any opinions or views on this apparent change? When she speaks of "troubles multiplying" it sounds to me like things are starting to turn sour up there... Like I've posted before, her mother and step-father are non-commital (the also buy pets and get rid of them every few months... I won't do that and keep our pets until they've lived out their lives... this is an example of how unstable these people are! Imagine how they are with people!).

Right now, I imagine her mother is already tiring of taking care of 3 children while my wife goes to work AND/OR they're talking about moving already... my wife is probably starting to see that maybe our lives down here were not THAT BAD... problems? Sure, I'll grant that, but nothing deserving of what happened. She also basically admitted that she just needed to get away and felt sick with the complaining and b*itching, and the current email I posted says she just needs some space for now... I can work on that people... it almost sounds like I might get another shot at this marriage thing. I'll keep everyone posted, but I also want to hear some feedback!

So, I think I might end up going to the three-bedroom one-bath home for $450 a month; maybe we need to date again? Like was posted before, I need to whisper sweet nothings and court her... that is what she really wants at this point. Like I promised, I'd work and she can stay at home with the children until August, when she can enroll in classes. In that manner, we'll be financially viable even without the extra income, and my wife, family, and I can work on our relationship. I'm going show her a REALLY good time this weekend and just try to love my wife and respect her... I'm not even going to discuss our problems.

Well I do wish you the best of luck with all of this. Keep in mind though, actions speak louder than words

Definitely, but I'm wanting to know what the board thinks about these emails! Good, bad, or neutral? Hopeful?

I think they are sincere and the best you can do is wait to talk to her in person like she stated she would. Trying to read into an e-mail or text message is like trying to read someone's mind. I can't tell you how many arguments I've seen happen because they took a text the wrong way. It's better to let the assumming go and wait to see how she acts in person towards you and the relationship issues.

But I do feel hopeful. I understand not wanting to read too much into it... but compared to the previous emails I've posted from her, these are DEFINITELY different and positive.

I agree with the different and positive aspect and applaud your efforts to show her that you want to change. It takes a big person to admit their mistakes and an even bigger person to take the steps to correct them.

Thanks, man... it's nice to hear. I'm hoping for the best, and I realize it still might not work out but at least she's willing to start a dialogue and spend some time with me to see if this could work out. We had a good relationship until we both started working and for the past 6-9 months we haven't been out on a single date (with just the two of us). We've just been busy, but I can promise you that if she offers a chance at reconciliation I won't make that same mistake again (but I could make 1000 others!). We'd set aside time for each other and I'll work on my complaining... we needed to get our financial house in order though, because it took every dime we had to stay in our house... we needed to downsize our home and downsize our workload. Once she finishes with school we can get or build the home we've always wanted but maybe it was too much, too soon? Obviously she didn't think the work was worth the result.

I haven't said anything because in some ways you remind me a lot of my ex husband and I didn't want that to color my advice excessively.

But you seem to have made a couple baby steps toward recognizing what needs to change on your end if you have a chance of reviving your marriage. Just don't rush anything. And don't forget that you can only change yourself.

Try to take it slow, look for cues from her on how she wants to proceed as far as physical intimacy. It's such a delicate line you'll be walking with her. So it might be a good idea to think of her as a new person that you're just getting to know. She's taken some pretty big steps to gain some independence and self worth back. So it might be helpful to welcome that. From everything, it has sounded like somewhere in the last 13 years, she lost some of her own self respect (and maybe even yours.)

And just a final thought, try not to gloat if she has hit hard times. You won't win her back if she feels like going back to you means giving up or failure. That would just further the rift and make her more determined to be by herself.

All in all, I'm pretty impressed at how much you seem to have taken to heart some pretty rough advice. You've been called on some less desirable character traits and have swallowed all of it. It sounds like you've grown from this. I wish you all the best and I really hope you can find a happy homelife.

My suggestion is, when you and your wife get together or even on the phone, you be quiet and listen to her. Don't bubble over with all your great ideas on how things can improve if we do this and that. Just do the empathy thing, be an active listener. Make those empathy noises - "Hmmmm" and "Tell me more" and "I hear you saying...." and "Good question. What do YOU think?" Practice everything you've learned so far about connecting with someone and getting inside their skin. Channel Carl Rogers.

Good advice; it'd be real easy for me to do what you said (start talking about how I'll make everything better... I need to be quiet and listen to her). I'll let everyone know how it goes, and if I receive any other emails or updates before then. I just have to say it feels better knowing that she's at least thawing out a bit... I really don't like it when she's cold or distant towards me... that's one of the things I've loved about her... she was always warm and compassionate... when she gets angry or resentful towards me, I don't like the lack of compassion that follows.

Thank you, and no I don't plan on gloating... there's nothing to gloat about; this entire situation is a tragedy in my view. I'm just hoping she'll see that if freedom and career success is what she wants, she's taking the most difficult path I can imagine. I do want her to be happy and help her attend school... I've wanted that for her for a LONG time. Maybe working long hours at a retail chain led her to think her life wasn't going anywhere. I can relate because that's how I felt when I finally left my first job... it was at a refrigerator factory and I stayed for five years... I just couldn't take it anymore. I was burned out, I felt like I was 50 instead of 23 due to the repetitive motions, and going to school while working there full-time was almost impossible. I had to leave, regardless of the consequences and haven't had another job that paid as much or more until I started at my current job. I do understand getting burned out. Anyway, I also thank you for your advice; I should treat her like someone new and just try to have a good time and "get to know her" again. People can renew their relationships, and like I've posted before, when I made my vow I didn't mean just when it was convenient or as long as things were going well. I want to stay married to the same woman for my entire life and I'll do what it takes to stay that way (and happy, of course). This divorce business is for the lawyers and the birds...

Divorce is not a good thing, especially for any children involved. It's something I fought long and hard against but when you're the only one trying, it's next to impossible.

It's great that you're making such an effort to see things from her eyes. That will make a big difference. Too often people get trapped in seeing things just from their side and therefore miss opportunities to grow. I really am impressed at how much growth you've had in such a short time. Just don't lose sight of your goal, having your wife back in your arms.