[greatbignow]

You are not empathetic, nor sympathetic, to the real needs of your family, so there gone. Its that simple.

Pay attention, she chose instability and poverty over you. And is happier?? Thats very profound.

I think she's also in denial...

All she needed to do was get away from her husband and father of her children... everything is better... I was the entire problem?

As the British would say, "Not Bloody likely."

At this point she has fewer responsibilities since her mother is footing the bill in many different ways; at some point that will create friction because her mother wants this to be worked out between us.

[greatbignow]

You are not empathetic, nor sympathetic, to the real needs of your family, so there gone. Its that simple.

Pay attention, she chose instability and poverty over you. And is happier?? Thats very profound.

What were those needs? The way I saw it, I was the one taking care of my children 5 days a week! I was the one who helped them with homework, cooked them dinner, took them places, and took general care of their needs in a myriad of ways. My wife was the one who worked in the evenings and no longer took care of anyone's needs but her own; she would also stay out with her friends until the wee hours of the morning while I was taking care of our home. I felt burned out and overburdened, and that I was doing the majority of the housework AND childrearing AND working... but kept at it because my family needed it and we wanted to buy our home... after that she was going to go back to school. I don't see how your comment applies, but of course I have to realize that you only know what has been posted so it's possible the information is incomplete as well. Not sure I could have done anything more, except have paid more attention to my wife's needs (emotionally & sexually).

[Wondergirl]

What were those needs? The way I saw it, I was the one taking care of my children 5 days a week! I was the one who helped them with homework, cooked them dinner, took them places, and took general care of their needs in a myriad of ways. My wife was the one who worked in the evenings and no longer took care of anyone's needs but her own; she would also stay out with her friends until the wee hours of the morning while I was taking care of our home. I felt burned out and overburdened, and that I was doing the majority of the housework AND childrearing AND working... but kept at it because my family needed it and we wanted to buy our home...after that she was going to go back to school. I don't see how your comment applies, but of course I have to realize that you only know what has been posted so it's possible the information is incomplete as well. Not sure I could have done anything more, except have paid more attention to my wife's needs (emotionally & sexually).

There are needs and there are needs. Household chore needs, parenting needs, cooking needs, working-for-pay needs, academic needs, and aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh emotional and sexual needs.

Having been married since Noah dropped us off the ark, I know the last two needs, hands down, take precedence over all the others.

[asking]

So far, it seems your education has been your priority over the loved ones in your life. Thats why they are not there now.

This is an important point.
Talaniman is giving advice that is difficult to hear but right.

(I should know. I don't always like what Talaniman says, but it's generally right!)

It's not that education is bad or not a good goal, but that it should never come before your children.

[asking]

Not sure I could have done anything more, except have paid more attention to my wife's needs (emotionally & sexually).

"Except"??
Duh!

Please reread what Wondergirl posted:

There are needs and there are needs. Household chore needs, parenting needs, cooking needs, working-for-pay needs, academic needs, and aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh emotional and sexual needs.

Having been married since Noah dropped us off the ark, I know the last two needs, hands down, take precedence over all the others.

[sully123]

Greatbignow, its always going back to you and what you did. This is not about you and her anymore, its about your kids, your dwelling on changing it with your wife and that isn't going to happen right now. Deal with what is now. You said she did work at night, well she most of been pulling in money also for your household. Their was something missing in the marriage, and at this time of her life she chose to move on. I am sure it wasn't a decision for her overnight, she must of thought about it, to pack three kids up and go. No one is putting you down, you sound like you were a great Dad, but I don't think you understand its not about you anymore and what could be. Please put this on the back burner now, and concentrate on the kids and seeing them. It seems like its about you hurting and what you want. You are going to stay stuck, and the only one who will get hurt at the end will be you and the kids, not her. So I suggest to move on and put your energy on your family, as hard as it is.

[talaniman]

Sully makes some good points as she must have been thinking of this action for a while, before she did it, and it came as a shock to you. Yeah we all here understand shock and hurt, but you tell us very little about the relationship, other than her failures. Very little about missing them, and fail to see its about what you do next, not how she will fail again, or what her parents want her to do. Its all about your plan and what you do.

[LAMBCHOPS]

The reason I suggested talking to her family is because he doesn't exactly seem clear on why she even left. Despite someone's age, sometimes our parents understand us better than our spouses. That's all. I've gone to my inlaws from time to time when I don't understand my spouse's actions and it's been helpful. So what if you're 40 and have kids... that means you're expected to know it all?

[sylvan_1998]

You really need to re-read this thread or have someone read it to you GreatBigNow. Open up and listen. You know, just because you meet all the needs (taking care of children, household, etc) does not make a person happy. Or rich people with household staffs would never need counseling or lawyers. From what I am gathering from what you have said and what you have not said, she needs a sense of selfworth, and she needs to be content within herself. You undermined this every time you downgraded her relatives and "encouraged" her in her endeavors. Some people are not driven or have such a low opinion that they may get the courage to start but seldom have the courage to succeed.

So you are right, it does lie within her. But listen to this next part, you are the one who cultivates or kills those pieces within her. And from what you have said, I think you inadvertently killed those. So you are wrong when you say the answer is within her. If she is to live with you, some of the cure has to come from you.

Quit fighting it. Quit trying to find someone to validate you. Quit being a right fighter. WHat you have done is not working for you and you either need to be okay with that and walkaway saying you did all you could or start trying something new.

[greatbignow]

Sully makes some good points as she must have been thinking of this action for a while, before she did it, and it came as a shock to you. Yeah we all here understand shock and hurt, but you tell us very little about the relationship, other than her failures. Very little about missing them, and fail to see its about what you do next, not how she will fail again, or what her parents want her to do. Its all about your plan and what you do.

I do miss them terribly; I look forward to having lunch with her this weekend (provided she doesn't cancel it), and I don't plan on talking about our troubles. I'm going to try and have a good time with my wife. I love her and the children more than any other thing. I went to school for them, and I took the job for them. It's been about them, not me. I wanted to finish my Ph.D. right after the master's degree, but I felt it was their turn and that I should focus on their needs since they supported me all the way through school (emotionally, I took care of the financial aspects while she watched the kids). The relationship, in my opinion, was one of warmth, friendship, emotional stability, and sexual satisfaction as well (except for the last six months). I loved her like no other, and I planned on staying with her until we left this earth. I still hope for that goal. I just wish there would have been more communication that she felt so unhappy. She wouldn't talk to me or open up at all... she'd just say "Leave me alone" and so I would. She started talking to her friends and hanging out with them late at night and not coming home until many hours after work ended. It reached the point to where I would check online to see when she clocked out. I wasn't trying to be controlling, but she'd get off work at 10 p.m. and walk in the door at to a.m. without calling or anything. That is not acceptable behavior for a mother and wife, In my opinion. Most of our arguments spawned from that; about 10 years ago I used to do the same thing and sometimes would stay gone for days at a time. I know it was wrong, and so I changed it. I became responsible and took care of my family. However, apparently I became too rigid and neglected her needs.

On my future plans... I've already applied to two universities; one for a Ph.D. in educational research and statistics & the other for special education (I work with students who have disabilities on the university level). The one for special education has a training grant that pays $1,500 a month living stipend AND full tuition. If I can get a teaching assistantship (which is what I want to do with my degree anyway), I can bump that up to $2,500 a month and make more money than I do now! I could actually support my children better and finish my education... I'd also probably have more time to see them. If I move back to Fayetteville, I'll make less money but be near my children and wife and I figure it would be the likeliest chance for reconciliation. If I'm 10 hours away I don't think it will happen as likely. It's much easier said than done to walk away. Of course I'll give her space but when I made my vow I meant it. That means through good times and bad, through mid-life crises and menopause. I love my spouse, and I can wait for her and show her how much I still love her. Until she's actually divorced me, I plan on doing everything within reason to try and reconcile this relationship. It's not fair to my children to have their father taken away from them; their stability shattered. Their entire lives are now shattered... everything they knew is gone. And for what? So that she can lead her own life? It's selfish and if she had communicated these things to me, AND we went to counseling and it still didn't work out I'd say OK. However, she just walked out one day without so much as sitting down and communicating what happened or what she was planning on doing OR how she was feeling. In fact, I couldn't get an answer out of her for days until right before she left! I asked if she would at least stay until June (sleep on the couch, ect) so that we wouldn't be financially devastated and the children could finish the school year, and she said she'd think about it... she didn't answer directly and finally revealed that she'd be leaving the Monday before Christmas. I was hurt beyond belief and she wouldn't even allow me to see my children for Christmas... I got a five minute phone-call from them.


So my plans for the future are to finish my Ph.D. I can't live on what I make working full-time with my master's degree, and I'll actually make more money per month going to school. It will take three years to complete my degree, and it's going to take her four years if everything pans out, which I have to say I seriously doubt. I'll be extremely surprised her mother stays put long enough for her to even enroll in school this fall. THAT IS HOW UNSTABLE these people are... I'm not making it up or being condescending. These people won't let grass grow under their feet, and now my children's future is in their hands... I'm deeply concerned about my children and figure they'll be transferring to different schools every 3-6 months. That's what will happen if I'm not there to help them. She's heading for a train wreck with her fingers in her ears, thinking that I'm the only problem and if she can just get away everything will be fine. It's not just me.

[greatbignow]

"Except"?? !!!! ????
Duh!

Please reread what Wondergirl posted:

I agree; if I had another chance I'd take care of those. It is my hope and desire that at some point she'll figure our family and marriage is worth at least TRYING to save. That's the problem I have... she made no effort to try and save our marriage... no communication, no counseling... NOTHING!

[Synnen]

No one said it was JUST you.

HOWEVER: I left my husband once. It was back when we were still dating. I went to my mother's for a week, with no notice--just the words, "I'm done. I'll call you when I'm ready to talk about how to get my stuff out of here".

He was shocked to the core.

Guess what, though? I'd been TRYING to talk to him about why I was unhappy for a couple months before then. He didn't REALLY listen to me. He had it all figured out, problems all solved, everything tied up nice and neat and hey presto! I was supposed to just be HAPPY with his solutions, because they were "what's best for US".

Well, I got sick of that attitude REALLY fast. HIS solutions didn't work for ME, even if they worked for US. I was bitterly unhappy, and saw him as the source of my unhappiness, even though I KNEW it was other things too. The thing is, though---I was resentful because he dictated how WE were going to handle the things in MY life that I thought were intolerable. One of the things HE decided was that WE were going to wait for something--and I finally decided that it wasn't worth being miserable with my job, and then coming home and being angry with HIM because HE decided that I'd have to stay at my horrible job for a YEAR more, so I was upset both at home AND at work. The only respite I got was going out with my friends.

I can't even begin to imagine how much worse that would have been if we'd had kids, and my job made it so that I hardly got to see them.

So yeah---because YOU dictated how it was going to be for BOTH of you, regardless how miserable it made her, even for just a "short time" like 6 months or a year, she left. At least then she could be angry with HERSELF for being unhappy instead of holding resentment against you for it.

In other words: Better the captain of a rowboat than a slave on a luxury liner.

[greatbignow]

No one said it was JUST you.

HOWEVER: I left my husband once. It was back when we were still dating. I went to my mother's for a week, with no notice--just the words, "I'm done. I'll call you when I'm ready to talk about how to get my stuff out of here".

He was shocked to the core.

Guess what, though? I'd been TRYING to talk to him about why I was unhappy for a couple months before then. He didn't REALLY listen to me. He had it all figured out, problems all solved, everything tied up nice and neat and hey presto! I was supposed to just be HAPPY with his solutions, because they were "what's best for US".

Well, I got sick of that attitude REALLY fast. HIS solutions didn't work for ME, even if they worked for US. I was bitterly unhappy, and saw him as the source of my unhappiness, even though I KNEW it was other things too. The thing is, though---I was resentful because he dictated how WE were going to handle the things in MY life that I thought were intolerable. One of the things HE decided was that WE were going to wait for something--and I finally decided that it wasn't worth being miserable with my job, and then coming home and being angry with HIM because HE decided that I'd have to stay at my horrible job for a YEAR more, so I was upset both at home AND at work. The only respite I got was going out with my friends.

I can't even begin to imagine how much worse that would have been if we'd had kids, and my job made it so that I hardly got to see them.

So yeah---because YOU dictated how it was going to be for BOTH of you, regardless how miserable it made her, even for just a "short time" like 6 months or a year, she left. At least then she could be angry with HERSELF for being unhappy instead of holding resentment against you for it.

In other words: Better the captain of a rowboat than a slave on a luxury liner.

Thanks for the insight and personal experience. For whatever reason, I didn't see it coming other than the red flags that I SHOULD have seen but I always thought we were stable and secure enough that if there was a problem we'd deal with it before it went too far... I guess that is a primary difference in communication styles between men and women. I couldn't or wouldn't read between the lines, and she wouldn't come out and say it. I got upset and griped when she'd stay out for hours at a time without telling me where she was or why she was out, but what I should have been doing was satisfying her needs and working to make it so she'd WANT to come home and be with me. Since the home invasion and attempted rape of my wife in December 2006 (read the prior posts for the details), I rarely left them home alone... I was just to worried that something would happen to them. I also offered her, if she came home, to be able to stay at home with the children and quit her job and she can attend college for what she said she wants: nursing. We'd get a smaller house but one that's big enough for all of us. She said thanks, but at this point she feels that our separation will be permanent. I then said that, hey, it's only been a month and what will you do if your mother leaves or moves? She said, "They can't" to which I replied, "They've done it before, and chances are they'll do it again." Everything hinges on whether her mother is stable. I'm waiting for her mother to move and uproot everyone again, because hopefully at that point she'll realize school likely won't be an option living with her mother... and that her husband and father of her children isn't such a bad guy who might be worth trying to salvage a relationship and family with... I'm just waiting for that day.

Like I said, she wouldn't have to work and she can go to school like she wanted. I'm willing to work two jobs if need be, because I love my family and want them to be together and I certainly want my wife to be happy.

[asking]

Like I said, she wouldn't have to work and she can go to school like she wanted. I'm willing to work two jobs if need be,

I don't know. This just sounds like promises, promises. After I said I wanted a divorce, my husband also offered me a lot of the things I'd wanted for 15 years. I also turned down his offer. Too little, too late.

Plus, I didn't really believe him. If he wasn't going to "let me" go out occasionally when I wasn't leaving him, no reason to think he'd let me if I came back. When we were married, he even objected to my going to see a movie with his sister and her best friend every few months. He said he wasn't meant to be a "babysitter." He basically wanted me home 24/7 unless I was buying groceries and had the kids with me. When I said I was done, he was suddenly telling me I can go out and I can travel without him occasionally, "rights" my friends (and his sister) didn't have to threaten divorce to get. I want to be with someone who doesn't need to be over a barrel to make reasonable concessions. My feeling is that you waited too long.

because I love my family and want them to be together and I certainly want my wife to be happy.

You say that, but you also keep saying you hope she will fail. THAT doesn't sound like you want her to be happy (nor that you want your kids to be happy). And everything you've posted makes it sound more like you needed her income for your financial plans to work out. You have barely said a word about your kids; it's almost all been about money.

[Synnen]

I have to agree with Asking here: Pretty much everything you've talked about has been either the money side of things (and women care a LOT less about money than being happy) or about education--usually YOUR education.

LIFE IS NOT ABOUT EITHER OF THOSE THINGS.

Being HAPPY isn't about money or education either--though they can certainly help at times.

Being happy, being successful, is hearing each other's dreams and wanting the other person to succeed at THEIR dream more than you want your own. Being happy is working TOGETHER to achieve things--and that means that if you have to change the plan because something is NOT working for only ONE of you, then you change the stupid plan.

I agree that this might be a "too little, too late" thing. I have a feeling your wife is going to make it work no matter what, and at this point it might be to spite you, it might to be show you that she's capable of FAR more than you expect of her--and frankly, if she divorces you, she gets child support and hey presto, she's a single mom! Watch the grant money and help from the state come rolling in for her to get an education--WITHOUT you.

What you are not understanding from HER point of view is this: She does not NEED you. She especially doesn't need someone who is not listening to her when she does try to chase her dreams.

Step down. Give her space. And support what she is DOING, not what you would "let" her do if she came back.

[greatbignow]

I don't know. This just sounds like promises, promises. After I said I wanted a divorce, my husband also offered me a lot of the things I'd wanted for 15 years. I also turned down his offer. Too little, too late.

Plus, I didn't really believe him. If he wasn't going to "let me" go out occasionally when I wasn't leaving him, no reason to think he'd let me if I came back. When we were married, he even objected to my going to see a movie with his sister and her best friend every few months. He said he wasn't meant to be a "babysitter." He basically wanted me home 24/7 unless I was buying groceries and had the kids with me. When I said I was done, he was suddenly telling me I can go out and I can travel without him occasionally, "rights" my friends (and his sister) didn't have to threaten divorce to get. I want to be with someone who doesn't need to be over a barrel to make reasonable concessions. My feeling is that you waited too long.



You say that, but you also keep saying you hope she will fail. THAT doesn't sound like you want her to be happy (nor that you want your kids to be happy). And everything you've posted makes it sound more like you needed her income for your financial plans to work out. You have barely said a word about your kids; it's almost all been about money.

I never said she couldn't go out or have friends over. What I didn't like was being left with nearly all the child-rearing duties AND household chores AND working 45 hours a week while she used her days off and off-time to hang out with friends without even calling first. That's the issue I took with it. I had no free time, certainly not enough to hang out with friends, and so no, it didn't feel like a partnership at all. I was taking care of almost everything! She was working 30-35 hours a week and hanging out with her friends, and little else. No one seems to hear that part of it.

Also, if we divorce then it's not a foregone conclusion that she'll get sole custody. If I move back to Fayetteville for my doctorate, then a joint custody arrangement will be what I'd accept. Once her mother starts moving around, I also suspect that if she does try to take the children from me I'll have a chance at them if I can show I'm stable... children need stability and her mother isn't going to provide it; that much I'm certain of.

Sorry to worry about money so much, but when your electricity is turned off, your credit cards are behind, your rent is due, and your water has been shut off (I wrote a hot check so I could turn it back on), money IS the most important thing. I don't think you realize how much of a financial bind she left me in. Our credit is going to be ruined, and I had to borrow $400 from my brother just to eat and cover my water bill. That's what I was trying to avoid, but she wouldn't listen and now our credit is going to be ruined. High price to pay for "happiness" in my view.

[greatbignow]

Also, if we do divorce AND she gets custody then I'll have little to no income. Support will be minimal while I'm in my doctoral program, and nothing if we arrange for joint custody but we'll both be responsible for their living expenses.

What I'd "let" her do? I've offered to work so she can go to school for 1.5 years now, and she wouldn't commit to going! If she wasn't going to go, then she might as well work because that's what we needed to buy the house that SHE wanted. She loved the house we live in and really wanted to buy it... I wanted to help her get it.

[talaniman]

Hey guy, where I feel your pain, I sure am in wonderment it took a drastic action to get your attention, and she still has not gotten through to you.

Look at it from her side, she was ignored and belittled for 13 years, so unless she sees change your toast. If and only if its not too late.

What kind of thinking are you using to justify to anyone that you can take care of kids with no water, or food in your house? Again, your focusing on the wrong issues, and have been a long time.

Look its unfair to blame it all on you, as I know from experience she probably does have a few issues that didn't help things, but those you had better forget for now and deal with your situation for everyone's sake, no matter who is living where.

Correct your first mistake really fast, financial independence to enhance the welfare of your family. I doubt you can pay child support

[asking]

I never said she couldn't go out or have friends over.

Of course not. That was my particular issue. I was using it as an analogy. Sorry for being unclear.

She was working 30-35 hours a week and hanging out with her friends, and little else. No one seems to hear that part of it.

Okay. We do hear this and it sounds lonely and exhausting. (Believe me, I've been there. My ex husband had a nice cushy job where he could mostly show up whenever he liked, take 1 - 3 hour lunches with friends/colleagues, and mostly schmoozed on the phone all day. Then he'd come home "tired" .) So I can definitely relate to your resentment about this.

But consider that this was basically your plan, at least if I understood you right. Wasn't it your idea that things should play out this way? If your wife is working an evening shift most nights to pay off college loans incurred for your education, you are going to have to take care of the kids.

And, second, that she wasn't seeing much of her children. If she's only home in the morning and the kids are at school, she's not going to see them much. That's really sad. It would be normal to seek some kind of contact with human beings, particularly if she was unhappy. It is normal for women to seek out and cultivate a network of friends when they are stressed. Men do this less, and are more likely to go to their wife or girlfriend for emotional support, as you are probably aware.

Finally, I am guessing she did some housework during the day, though with two people working and three kids, it's never enough, is it? Nearly all of us underestimate how much our spouses do. I think of my ex not doing much, and certainly he didn't do as much as I did, but he did do the dishes semi regularly, he did mow the lawn for a few years, he did vacuum every month or two. He dealt with the garbage without being asked. It's normal for you to be furious with your wife right now. No one can blame you for feeling angry. She dumped you after you spent your entire adult life with her. She took your family away. How could you not be angry?

But you have to separate your anger about that from an accurate assessment of what really happened in the marriage. And, more important, if you want to get along with her, you have to be able to hear what she felt and why she's left--because this is important for you to understand, whether you decide in the end that she was justified or not. I think you have been making good efforts in this direction, but it's clear to most of us here that you are frequently seeing things purely from your own perspective. Almost by definition, that's not going to give you an accurate understanding of what's going on. You are just not going to see things that are real.

Also, if we divorce then it's not a foregone conclusion that she'll get sole custody. If I move back to Fayetteville for my doctorate, then a joint custody arrangement will be what I'd accept. Once her mother starts moving around, I also suspect that if she does try to take the children from me I'll have a chance at them if I can show I'm stable... children need stability and her mother isn't going to provide it; that much I'm certain of.

There is no reason at all for her to have sole custody. You are their father and you should continue to see them regularly. I don't know how far Fayetteville is from where your wife is, but the kids will have to be in one school or another. Too much travel time, whether during the week or on weekends, would not be in their best interests. You might negotiate to take them for summers and vacations. And you can do some of the travel, by going to see them when they are not with you.

[g8er187]

I'm so sorry you are going through this.. sounds to me as if she's being extremely selfish.Being a single parent is extremely hard with one child let alone 3. But you shouldn't let the situation keep you from your children. When my parents gots divorced my father disappeared because of the same reason. Although we do see each other now and then, its not the same. We missed out on a lot of time and now it feels as though we are total strangers. Whenever there are family events on his side, I always try to go but feel lost as if I don't belong there. Please don't make your children feel this way. At the very least call them every now and then to see how they're doing and tell them how important they are to you and how mch you love them and wish you could be there with them. As far as what happened in my own relationship. I left my child's father also, but not for me, for my son. Because my ex was a good provider yes, but he wasn't a good parent. I went out of my way to set up visits for them, and only once did I refuse to let him take my son.( I went to his house and found my son crying downstairs all by himself in a highchair at 9 months in front of a TV and his father sleeping upstairs) We took a break from overnight visits for awhile because I wasn't comfortable with it. His father would see him every week, then every two weeks and slowly faded away. Then to the point where hed call every 3 months or so and say I've been really busy but I want to see him. I'd just say let me know when and Ill bring him. My son is now 5 years old and his dad hasn't seen him at all since he was 1 and he only lives 10 minutes away. He tried to call a few months ago to say he wanted to start seeing him again, and I actually had to say no. I'm not going to put my son through that. I told him I don't want him coming in and out of our sons life. If he wants to be a dad it has to be all the time not just when he feels like it, Im not going tobe the one to say daddy isn't coming again... So please don't take out your issues with your wife on your children. I know what you mean by how the dad seems to fade away after a new relationship begins.. But he doesn't have to. You have to make your kids aware that you're there for them all the time, make plans with them, call them. The only reason these dads fade away is because they give up trying to make their presence known. The best thing for your kids is not to lose their dad.. even if there mom remarried, they still need you