Is magic real?

jammixmaster · Mar 22, 2009, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarnian

Yes, science proved that energy exists. But you still have to prove that magic is pure energy.

Sure, magic can begin in the mind. But there are limits. You stated "You can do anything you put your mind to". But that is not true. There are limits. You can imagine many things in your mind, but that does not ensure that whatever you imagine is real or can be done. So prove that you can literally do anything you put your mind to, or accept that this is no support for your magic claim.

How conveniant. But I have all the time, so go ahead : post these factors, of course supported by valid evidence.

Science would call this a non-answer. Of course there is coincidence. But that has nothing to do with 'real magic', and nothing with 'You can do anything you put your mind to'. Please keep to the subject and the point I made. Prove that 'You can do anything you put your mind to'. Or accept that there is no support for this claim.

Note : you have not in any way supported so far your claim that magic is real.
You introduced a lot of 'red herrings' in response to my previous post, but I like to keep focussed in your own topic on your own question 'Is magic real?' and your own statement "Magic is real". I asked you to support that statement. But I am still waiting.

Again : of course you may believe that magic is real, but claiming it as fact is incorrect until you have proved it!

I'm guessing the proof you're looking for does not lie in words, but in visuals. In that case you would have to meet me or meet someone who actively practices magic. No matter how long of a post I write trying to convince you, you won't believe anyway. So I suggest you try it yourself (the best suggestion) or find someone who practices magic. But like I said, trying it yourself would be your best bet, so you can see it with your own eyes using your own mind and will to do it.

jammixmaster · Mar 22, 2009, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwdieseljunkie

Yeah, well, I am also still waiting for proof that there is a god. Does my disbelief in a vengeful, omnipotent, omnipresent entity have anything to do with whether or not one exists? No. That is why I made the comparison to prayer and incantation. Though through belief, neither has anything to do with the other, yet they are both the same in my opinion.

But, you are right sarnian, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. So magic does not exist because I can't make your keyboard fly off your desk while you type, unless I was there with you to yank on the cord. But that's ok with me.

As someone who has spent a great deal of time in the company of practicing Wiccans (and other various paganistic beliefs that "use magic"), I had learned to keep my mouth shut and my eyes open, and not make it too obvious that I've got my tounge in my cheek and often trying not to smile, or worse, laugh. This is as serious to those who believe in magic as prayer is to a Christian.

I can make water burn, hell I can make water expload VIOLENTLY. It's not magic to me, it's provable, tangible, boring old science. But to watch the eyes of those who witness me do it, even after explaining what the reaction was, you could see that it was still magic to them. It was extraordinary.

The argument against magic is like the argument against religion. Until the omnipotent one comes home, or someone turns you into a toad, we are left only to believe what we choose. It's the inability to positively disprove the actual existence of either, that keeps it believable to the individual.

Am I making any sense?

I have to agree and disagree with you. The kind of magic that turns people into toads is TV magic, and you can thank shows like "Charmed" and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" for that. That sort of magic does not exist, if it did we'd all be practicing magic. I mean, if we could just cast a spell to get rich I think there would be a lot more than 1000 or so billionaires in the world.

As for the belief of God, true, we cannot prove that one. People believe by faith that a God exists, so we just have to wait until one comes or we die to find out. But obviously words cannot make any of you believe in magic so why not practice it yourselves? And don't give some lame excuse like "I don't have time" or "Why would I waste my time with something as stupid as magic?". Just do it and see for yourself. I could sit here and write the world's greatest book on magic and still most of you would not believe. So, go out and buy a book or download one and try it for yourself. If my words aren't enough proof, then get it yourself.

jammixmaster · Mar 22, 2009, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XOXOlove

i guess it kind of makes more sense now, but how do you do it?

And even if I could do magic I think I would still believe in god.

Don't wiccans believe in god(s)?

Yes we Wiccans believe in a God, but we also believe in a Goddess and we give Her more reverence than we do to our God........but that in no way means that God is not important. But yes, we are a polytheistic people (in reality we're duo-theistic but it's extremely hard to explain how) and we believe in a Goddess and a God. I hope that helps.

*BTW: You don't have to believe in God to practice magic, you can simply practice magic as a folk art without using any Deity names*

sarnian · Mar 22, 2009, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammixmaster

I'm guessing the proof you're looking for does not lie in words, but in visuals.

Not really. I asked evidence for the topic claim that magic is real. To me it is unimportant if that is done with words or visuals. As long as valid evidence is provided, not claims, hearsay, or personal opinions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammixmaster

In that case you would have to meet me or meet someone who actively practices magic.

Once more : not really. There is no need for someone who practices magic. All I ask is valid evidence for magic being real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammixmaster

No matter how long of a post I write trying to convince you, you won't believe anyway.

You do not have to convince me, and I do not have to believe anything. All I ask is to provide valid evidence for magic being real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammixmaster

So I suggest you try it yourself (the best suggestion) or find someone who practices magic.

That seems to confirm to me that you have no valid evidence that magic is real. Why can't you simply admit that?
As stated before, I have no problem people believing that magic is real.

===

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammixmaster

As for the belief of God, true, we cannot prove that one.

I note that you can neither prove that magic is real. So my conclusion can only be that - just like theists believe in God(s) - you just believe that magic is real.

str33t punk · Mar 22, 2009, 06:08 PM

Magic is real,but not in the way people think, it is not the suden glow yousee in a magicians hands, or a floating object controlled by his mind. It all has to do with slight of hand and the right equipment. Like you see on tv where somebody is floating that is the "magic" or camera first the magician will levitate on his toes (go on his tip-toes on an angle to make it look like he/she is floating) then they add a hoist to the magician and film the hoist lifting him several feet above the ground..add in some pre recorded reacions and boom you have your levitation. As the the floating objects, the "magic" in invisible thread. Everything has an explination, me being a magician myself knows the only magic is the slight of hand and seeing your fans smile as they dream about this unrealistic entertainment

jammixmaster · Mar 22, 2009, 06:46 PM

Ok Sarnian, lets go with what you said. If magic isn't real, then why do people continue to practice something that brings no results? That's like trying to write with a pen that has no ink. You know the pen is empty yet you keep trying to write with it. What's the point? The same goes for our discussion on the existence of magic. If every time for the past 9 years that I've been practicing magic, if 100% of my spells didn't work then why the F would I continue to follow the Wiccan faith? Makes no sense. Magic is real, whether you believe it or not. And I already said that I have proved to you with words that magic exists, you just choose not to accept it. Because of that I told you to try it for yourself. If you're not willing to try it for yourself you just don't want to accept the fact that maybe.....just MAYBE you may prove to yourself that magic is real. You keep asking for proof....prove it to yourself I can't cast a spell over a message board.....so therefore you would need to do it for yourself. I don't know how many times you've said that I can't prove it. I'm trying to prove it, by telling you to do it yourself. You say I'm afraid to admit that it's not real.....yet I think it's you who is afraid......afraid to try it for yourself. You're a man of science right? Well then, conduct and experiment for yourself.

XOXOlove · Mar 22, 2009, 09:04 PM

What drew you into doing magic? Did you already know how?

sarnian · Mar 23, 2009, 05:20 AM

Hello str33t punk

Quote:

... It all has to do with slight of hand and the right equipment...

Sorry, but in this Wiccan topic MAGIC means supernatural. What you refer to is the work of a magician.

sarnian · Mar 23, 2009, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammixmaster

Ok Sarnian, lets go with what you said.

But you do not go with what I said. I asked for valid evidence for the claim that magic is real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammixmaster

If magic isn't real, then why do people continue to practice something that brings no results?

Because they believe magic is real. Just like people who believe in God(s) believe in the power of their belief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammixmaster

Magic is real, whether you believe it or not.

You can say that as many times as you like, but lacking any valid evidence for that, you clearly can not support your claim that magic is real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammixmaster

...yet I think it's you who is afraid...

What a strange conclusion. All I ask you (and others) is to provide valid support for your claim that magic is real. Apparently you can't do that, and involve yourself in all kinds of red herrings instead of admitting that you believe that magic is real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammixmaster

You're a man of science right? Well then, conduct and experiment for yourself.

Yes I am well-versed in science. But I do not claim anything. All I do is ask for valid support for claims made by others. I do not have to conduct and experiment myself. I do not have to prove my views. You and your friends claim, so you have to provide valid support for what you claim to be real.

Every next entry here in which you post red herrings and/or try to let me involve myself in research in your belief in magic proves only one thing : you have no valid support for your wild claims !

excon · Mar 23, 2009, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammixmaster

Ok Sarnian, lets go with what you said. If magic isn't real, then why do people continue to practice something that brings no results?

Hello j:

Because it DOES bring the desired result.

I do magic tricks. People LOVE them. That's the result I'm looking for. I LOVE to entertain my friends. Plus, when I see magic performed, I LOVE it. Not because I think it's real, but because I got tricked.

None of it is real - none of it.

excon

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