Hello lanzmen:

Is a bris ritualistic disfigurement, or a mitsvoh? What about without anesthesia?

Is female circumcision (removal of the clitoris) disfigurement, or is it just a ritual practiced by a backwards group of people?

excon

I understand the religious meaning behind the bris and the medical "necessity" of circumcision. The doctors claimed my infant sons didn't feel pain and would have no recollection of being circumcised. (If they didn't feel pain, why did they scream their heads off?) If I could make that choice again, I would refuse to allow them to be circumcised.

From what I've read, not only does female circumcision remove the clitoris, the home plate of a woman's sexual sensation, but also often sews the vagina nearly closed. Intercourse becomes extremely difficult, childbirth is nearly impossible, and orgasm no longer can occur. The procedure gives a new definition to lifelong pain and misery. So, yes, it's disfigurement. It's also abuse and torture.

Mitzvoth. Disfigurement implies deformity, and that's not circumcision. The ceremony itself dates back 5k years to the patriarch "Avraham" and his covenant with G-d. Today, ritual circumcision is done by a mohel, on the eighth day, usually in the families home, but is permitted in hospital under the father's care. Sometimes the circumstance is that baby was ill or premature, or if adopted and received after the eight day. There is controversy in some Jewish communities concerning the use of a clamp in accordance to Jewish law. Mostly Orthodox communities disregard any use of clamps. If done in a hospital for a Jewish bris it will be asked of the father as an option. Mohels do not use clamps and it is regarded to be less painful than using a clamp since the clamp, in some cases, pinches the skin. After the bris is performed, the baby is able to perform all natural functions of life. A local anesthesia is optional, although not necessary. In some Jewish communities they just have the baby suck on a cloth dipped in wine.

Very recently my wife had a c-section and my baby boy, "Zakary" was born a little early so on the eighth day I optioned to do the circumcision at Southwest Medical clinic, as a precaution in case of any complications, not because of the circumcision itself, but because the baby was born to a mother that had hypertension. In Judaism it's the fathers obligation to make sure the baby has a bris so I chose to do the blessings. The hospital was very understanding and accommodating. Las Vegas has the fourth largest Jewish populated city in the US, so this was nothing new to their staff. The baby never cried except when we first took his diaper off, which was normal for him. In fact the bris didn't bother him one bit; happy and smiling. After coming home we had a party with food for guests.

Female circumcision is not proscribed in Judaism. In regards to the act, it is outright mutilation that unnecessarily removes a natural body function. Barbaric or as you put it, "practiced by a backwards group of people."



Bobby

Concerning boys...

The AMA follows the AAP's (american academy of pediatrics) position on use of anesthesia...

"There is considerable evidence that newborns who are circumcised without analgesia experience pain and physiologic stress. Neonatal physiologic responses to circumcision pain include changes in heart rate, blood pressure, oxygen saturation, and cortisol levels.36-39 One report has noted that circumcised infants exhibit a stronger pain response to subsequent routine immunization than do uncircumcised infants.40 Several methods to provide analgesia for circumcision have been evaluated."

Circumcision Policy Statement -- Task Force on Circumcision 103 (3): 686 -- AAP Policy

Disfigurement? "acceptable disfigurement"? I think maybe, but there's just not enough proof for my argument. I'm circumcised, my son isn't. Until a bunch of uncircumcised men line up to get the procedure and then report back whether the loss of potentially thousands of nerves decreased sexual experience, we'll not know. I've seen anti circumcision sites state that men whove had this done late in life have complained, but that can just be propaganda... it makes sense to me how circumcision could potentially affect your sexual experience, and I recently went into a discussion about how the health "concerns" are either overblown or not enough of a concern for either the AMA or AAP to recommend the procedure...

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...tml#post748267

... so I won't rehash it. But the ama and aap seem to think the procedure should involve pain management.

Good research "kp2171." I know that what the AMA thinks has nothing to do with Judaism, but since the subject is brought up, and I previously I asked my health professional at Southwest Medical... I was told that there are actually two main theories floating around the medical communities concerning pain of infants during a circumcision. 1) The nerves are not completely sensitive or quite fully functioning at eight days and 2) The newborn is experiencing all new sensations in the realm of life, making it to be painful or not.

I personally have known babies that had a painless bris without any analgesia. I'm traditional enough as the Jewish father to have the bris by commandment, but my Reform roots slip in once in awhile, so given the option I chose the local analgesia for my baby. And actually I was respecting my wife's input, as well. The main thing is that the bris was completed in a timely manner with blessings, and the baby was happy and smiling.

In Judaism, whatever pain is accompanied due to circumcision is acceptable. Rabbis teach that if there is pain, it's part of the life cycle. But as Jews we really are not to analyze it in that regard. Sure we naturally don't want our babies to go through pain. But it's sort of like the question we often receive about, "why eat kosher?," when some non-kosher foods have nutritional values. It's simply because G-d commanded.


Bobby

I probably choose middle ground here... don't want to distract from the thread. I tend to push too much sometimes.

I honestly believe you when you say you've seen bris without the child in pain. I've read other accounts and I've seen a circumcision in which the child shrieked and then stopped, as if the pain were so incredible that it couldn't gasp out the air... it was awful... so the most I can say is that there are many, different accounts of what the experience is... and I have no real agenda, even though I chose to not circumcise my son.

If you tell me you think its painless, I believe you believe its true... and I don't know that its not true.

And thanks for the theories on why some believe it may not be painful, or maybe not for some and for others. It's a thoughtful addition to a good discussion.

To finish my thought in my rating (my computer burped)... circumcision is not a natural part of a life cycle.

It has been and will continue to be part of the Jewish life cycle going on some five thousand years now. It's not expected of non-Jews, but as a Jew, I'm addressing what pertains to Judaism.


Bobby

Aaaaaaaaaaaah. JEWISH life cycle. Thank you.

I am sure there is pain because after I was circumcised I could not walk for a year.

Anything you do to your body to alter it is disfigurement. In the name of religion, vainty etc...
The backwoods people that are doing this to women are tormentors and there should be a law against it. Just another practice to keep women in their place.
As far as Jewish I can't remark because I know nothing about them.
The dr.'s that say it doesn't hurt in my opinon are idiots.

Not to make too much of a mess of things, but getting those shots and the doctor's office looks painful and kids do seem to cry a lot, but we accept the white coat and medical degrees as authority enough to tell us that this is for some greater good -- physical health.

Crazy thing about faith -- it allows us to recognize an even higher authority who says that there is another procedure necessary for spiritual health. True, it causes pain, but no one gave me a sip of whiskey after my MMR shots ;)

Thanks Rosends. Excellent points. :)


Bobby

Baram,OK, you got me on the tooth. But you can get a replacement one... Foreskin can not be replaced or grown back like toennails or hair... so yes it is altering the body. I would not sign for my daughter to have her ears pierced, I figure that is something that she should do as an adult, if she wishes.

So, people will choose to believe that cutting off a portion of the body is not painful bacause that's what they choose to have faith in... Sounds kind of like religion doesn't it?

Hmmm, wonder how many people still practice sacrificing their children?

I'm just having fun with you. I know what you really meant and respect your view.


Bobby

Huh? This site has the tools to quote a person. Where did somebody say that?


Bobby

You said "painless". Just because a child doesn't show obvious signs does not mean that it is not present. The only way to come to that positive conclusion is through faith in an assumption.

OK. Let's see if your assumption makes any logical sense whatsoever. You bent out of shape because I'm Jewish, have a Faith, and have witnessed some circumcisions where babies did not cry, but were happy and smiling, as in my own child, doesn't mean that these were painless. So you the one guy "bentoutofshape" in Ohio, conclude that this is the fault of religion. Gotcha! Thank you. You might be right. My sons mouth might have been sore from smiling throughout the procedure. He actually carried on in happiness for hours later until falling asleep. Must have been horrible. Thank you again and thank you for a cameo appearance here on the Judaism board, you lovable personality and tolerant genius. :)


Bobby