[margog85]

I attended our city's pride parade this past weekend. Behind the parade marched a scraggly gang of about 5 protestors (in comparison with the 200,000 who attended the parade and celebration, it was quite a small group). I found myself extremely angry with these people, walking around with their signs and megaphones, proclaiming that we are all sinners, perverts, undeserving of civil rights or any protections, condemning us to hell, angrily yelling out scripture verses... I wanted to try to talk to them, try to have some sort of conversation- but they were unapproachable, and made every effort to completely humiliate those who did approach them (yelling into megaphones about what sinners they were and how they were doomed to hell).

While I understand that homosexuality may be against the religious beliefs of some individuals, I fail to understand a number of things. Firstly, since when is it okay to believe that the religious morals of a group can be imposed upon those who don't share those same beliefs? If you believe that being gay is immoral, don't be gay. If I believe being gay is okay, and I am gay, then let me be. It's not as though the issue the issue at hand is something like MURDER- where if you think it's wrong, you don't murder, but I can because I don't see a problem with it. Gay people aren't hurting anyone. The protestors, I'm sure, would argue that we are. But I fail to see how working hard, contributing to my community, volunteering, going to school... doing EVERYTHING I would be doing whether I was straight or gay... how all of that is somehow soiled by who I go to sleep with at night. How all of a sudden, I'm a detriment to my society. Because I'm not producing children? In this already hiddeously overpopulated world... I don't think that's really an issue. What else could it be then? What makes me, and my partner, and my gay friends WORSE people than anyone else? Nothing. And if we're not hurting anyone, and all we want is to be regarded as people with rights equal to those that are afforded to anyone else, and then just to be left alone to live our lives... why is that something to go out and protest?

Secondly, what exactly do these people intend to accomplish by protesting on Pride weekend? Surely they can't believe that carrying signs and yelling at people is a sure-fire method to convert them, can they? Especially during a time when we're out celebrating who we are, proud of who we are, after existing in a society that has forced shame upon us for years and years... people who have lost their jobs, their families, their friends just be able to be who they are... people who have had to hide who they were out of fear of harassment, condemnation, abandonment... and now subjecting them to this kind of public ridicule for not adhering to religious morals that are not their own? It seems so petty, so strange, so unproductive. Their presence really came off as more of a self-gratifying one rather than any genuine 'mission' to save our 'lost souls'. They're just up on their self-righteous pedestals all day, degrading people who don't fit into their belief system. They can't imagine that they were really going to accomplish anything, can they? If their true intentions were to reach out to people, to change them, to convert them, to 'help' them, why take on such an aggressive approach? Why carry signs that put down and degrade the people they're trying to reach? Why humiliate people publicly with a megaphone, with nasty signs, with ignorant misuse of scripture? It just really boggles my mind.

Aren't Christians supposed to walk in the footsteps of their Christ? Would Jesus publicly berate someone who he felt needed guidance/help/salvation? And honestly, in a world as crazy and screwed up and hate-filled as we live in today, how can you condemn someone for loving someone else? It just seems so illogical. As a former Christian, it really just blows my mind the way that some people behave.

I would really love to get some feedback/thoughts on this and have a discussion about it. Any takers?

[Credendovidis]

I would really love to get some feedback/thoughts on this and have a discussion about it. Any takers?

Well. Let me react on your post...

Of course it is religious intolerance that causes certain believers to attack other views. They reject in their religious bias important freedoms that allow others to be and act what they are and/or want.
Nobody is telling them that they should do what they oppose. Nobody is forcing them to do what they reject.
But STILL they can not tolerate another view than their own.

That is not only the case with homosexuality. It comes back almost everywhere and in everything.
Suicide, euthanasia, abortion, sexuality... almost in every important decision in a human life the intolerant theists try to control and meddle with their religious views.

[Fr_Chuck]

Yes, Christ would have forgave them of their sin, shown them they sin and told them to go home and sin no more. But sadly the sinner today do not wish to do that.

And yes, christians are also subject to the same abuse when they try to have their gatherings of 100's of thousand also. But the issue is is the legal right of both sides to protest.

For example in Atlanta the "gay" right parade they even tried to get the rights of christians to protest taken away. And they show their pride by public nudity that that police will not stop and the city turns a blind eye to. Yes here in Atlanta they do make a statement for their movement, a sickening one

[margog85]

Yes, Christ would have forgave them of thier sin, shown them they sin and told them to go home and sin no more. But sadly the sinner today do not wish to do that.

And didn't Jesus tell his disciples that if they came to a town that rejected them, to wipe the dust from their sandles and move on? If it's obvious that the gay community is not going away... it's existed for thousands of years, it exists among humans and animals alike... and it seems fairly clear that we will continue to be who we are and live and work alongside the straight members of our communities... so why create such unnecessary tension? What can they hope to accomplish? Why do they feel the need to push and push and push against a group that just wants to be left alone and given equality. Additionally, this is not a 'sin' that is accepted universally as a 'sin', especially by gay people- If someone was doing something that was wrong, that was harming someone else, that was taking away from another persons basic rights or human dignity... then I can understand condemning that. But homosexuality is such a debatable issue, and it depends largely upon what an individuals perception is filtered through, especially religion.

christians are also subject to the same abuse when they try to have thier gatherings of 100's of thousand also.

And I think that's equally saddening. But I still feel that that is slightly different. Christians may have to deal with protestors who are against them for what they BELIEVE. We have to deal with protestors who are against us for WHO WE ARE. It hurts at a different level.

For example in Atlanta the "gay" right parade they even tried to get the rights of christians to protest taken away. And they show thier pride by public nudity that that police will not stop and the city turns a blind eye to. yes here in Atlanta they do make a statement for thier movement, a sickening one

I don't think that's necessarily taking away their 'right to protest'. I believe that there's a time and place for certain people. You wouldn't want protestors at your wedding, at a funeral, at a birthday party... Pride is a celebration and commemoration of the Stonewall Riots which were the beginning of the gay rights movement. We're not necessarily trying to make a statement all the time- sometimes we just want to have a day to celebrate who we are, to celebrate the diversity within our community, to celebrate how far we've come (although we still have quite a ways to go), be around people who are like us, who we don't feel are judging us for being who we are- and the presence of protestors who are angrily and forcefully telling us that we should be ASHAMED of who we are, when we're trying to celebrate our pride in who we are... it's a hindrance to our ability to celebrate what we're there to celebrate. So while I understand that people have a right to protest, I think that we also have a right to gather without feeling harassed. How often does it happen that the gay community all turns out to celebrate something? ONCE A YEAR... let us have our time.

And parades differ from city to city as far as how rowdy they get, if there's nudity... and again, I have to stress that this is not a PROTEST MARCH or a parade that is trying to make a statement for the movement... it's a celebration of the beginning of the gay rights movement...

Not everything that gay people do is intended to make a statement. And it's unfair to see it that way. And other parades (i.e. Puerto Rican Day Parade, Mardi Gras, etc) also involve people who are scantily clad or partially/fully nude- no one sees that as people 'making a statement for their cause'- it's a party and people get rowdy- try to see the gay pride parade the same way.

[wolf200050]

Well, I don't agree with those protesters, the way they dealt with the situation, but I also don't agree with homosexuals. As a former Christian even you should know the scripture where it talks about homosexuality being wrong, unless you just called yourself a christian. Just because somebody calls themselves a christian, but doesn't show it in there daily walk, than to me they are not. I don't want you to get offended, because everything I do I try to do in love, not condemnation.

[NeedKarma]

Some people hate everyone who is not exactly like them.
Example: http://networkupload.com/adfree/youmakemesick.jpg

[WVHiflyer]

If the self-righteous would live their own lives and stop others from telling them how to live theirs, those who feel discriminated against would lose that feeling and would need no reason to protest or march in the first place...

[Credendovidis]

If the self-righteous would live their own lives and stop others from telling them how to live theirs....

But that is precisely the problem : because of their religious based bias and intolerance they can't !

:rolleyes:

[Skell]

Your banging your head against a brick wall here. Don't you see it. Those who believe you are wrong will never be convinced otherwise. It is like them trying to convince me god exists. They won't. Be comfortable with who you are and don't give these people the time of day. They aren't worth it frankly. And I think you already know that!

[Credendovidis]

Skell : I assume you were addressing me, so :

Be comfortable with who you are

Oh, but I am very comfortable with that. People who really know me will confirm that!

... and dont give these people the time of day.

Au contraire ! It are the theists here who clearly show to feel uncomfortable with their own faillure to support their own religious claims.

They arent worth it frankly. And i think you already know that!

May be some of them are indeed not worth it. But many others are. And I post here for my own reasons, not for theirs !

Thanks!

;)

[Skell]

Skell : I assume you were addressing me, so :


Oh, but I am very comfortable with that. People who really know me will confirm that!


Au contraire ! It are the theists here who clearly show to feel uncomfortable with their own faillure to support their own religious claims.


May be some of them are indeed not worth it. But many others are. And I post here for my own reasons, not for theirs !

Thanks!

;)

You assumed wrong. I was addressing the original poster. Therefore the rest of your post does not apply nor make sense to me! Thanks :)

[Credendovidis]

You assumed wrong. I was addressing the original poster. Therefore the rest of your post does not apply nor make sense to me! Thanks :)

It would help if you state in future posts who you are addressing...
Ok. Than my previous post does indeed not apply to you. Never-the-less : what I posted made a lot of sense, and were correct statements.

;)

[Skell]

It would help if you state in future posts who you are addressing ...
Ok. Than my previous post does indeed not apply to you. Never-the-less : what I posted made a lot of sense, and were correct statements.

;)

Unless I quote someone assume I'm addressing the OP. Its pretty simple. I don't know why you would assume I was addressing you. ;)

[Credendovidis]

Unless i quote someone assume im adressing the OP. Its pretty simple. I dont know why you would assume i was addressing you. ;)

I did because you posted your lines directly after my post on the board, 7 minutes later, while margog85's last entry here was two days ago.

:rolleyes:

[simoneaugie]

People are unpleasant to one another because they are afraid. Fear of death, differences or worse, disgrace had brought many to argument and even murder.

Fear is ugly but necessary for us to revel in the absence of it.

[Credendovidis]

People are unpleasant to one another because they are afraid. Fear of death, differences or worse, disgrace had brought many to argument and even murder.
Fear is ugly but necessary for us to revel in the absence of it.

You hear often about the fear of (and for) death. And I see that fear frequently in my volunteer work in the local hospes. But - taking away the religious installed and objectively unsupported wild claim for hell in the "afterlife" - what is there really to be feared in death?

I also like to live a long time in good health, to enjoy the presence and achievements of my wife, children, and grandchildren. I would sadly say goodbye to them once my time comes. But fear death?

Why would one fear death? Unless that fear has been installed in your mind by some religious bug or virus.

:rolleyes:

[WVHiflyer]

But - taking away the religious installed and objectively unsupported wild claim for hell in the "afterlife" - what is there really to be feared in death?

I can't remember the exact quote or from where, but it went something like... Once you're dead you won't know it so as far as you know you'll always be alive.. .

[margog85]

Your banging your head against a brick wall here. Dont you see it. Those who believe you are wrong will never be convinced otherwise. It is like them trying to convince me god exists. They wont. Be comfortable with who you are and dont give these people the time of day. They arent worth it frankly. And i think you already know that!

I haven't been around here for a day or two... but yes, I do see that I am banging my head against a brick wall. I started another topic about homosexuality and asked for reasons from religious people as to why it's 'wrong' without referring to their religion since it doesn't apply to me. No one could really give a good reason, the reasons they gave were easily disputed, but they just couldn't open their minds to see it.

It's really frustrating, honestly. It's like someone is telling me the sky is green, and no matter how many times I SHOW them it's blue, they keep insisting otherwise.

I am comfortable with who I am, it just really peeves me that people can think such incorrect and rotten things about me- and those people, who can't argue their way out of a paper bag and can't give any solid reasons as to why who I am is such a detriment to society, are the people who feel that it's okay to look down on me, to tell me I'm going to hell, to fight tooth and nail against my ability to marry the person I love...

It's just so sad that people can have so much disdain for an entire group of people based purely on incorrect stereotypes, or because we make them feel 'uncomfortable' because we're 'just weird' and 'not normal'. I really don't think I'll ever be able to understand where they're coming from, no matter how hard I try.

[margog85]

Well, I don't agree with those protesters, the way they dealt with the situation, but I also don't agree with homosexuals. As a former Christian even you should know the scripture where it talks about homosexuality being wrong, unless you just called yourself a christian. Just because somebody calls themselves a christian, but doesn't show it in there daily walk, than to me they are not. I don't want you to get offended, because everything I do I try to do in love, not condemnation.

Well, if your post wasn't mean offensively, I will try not to take it offensively- even though that was my impression until I got to the last line... but please do not make assumptions about me- I used to be very involved in my church, volunteered all the time, spoke on retreats, and was very devoted to my beliefs... I won't get into the details of it all, but I assure you I wasn't just one of those 'my parents are christian, so I am too' types, where religion is inherited just like nationality is...

As far as the bible referring to homosexuality, 1. I have done a lot of research on the matter, and, not to go into the details here since it's not the topic of the post, a lot of what is said about 'homosexuality' in the bible really could be interpreted many ways. And 2. Even if I did believe that the bible said specific things regarding the sinfulness of homosexuality, as a non-Christian, I don't have to believe or live by those guidelines, I should not have those guidelines imposed upon me, and I should be able to celebrate who I am without being condemned for not abiding by religious morals which are not my own. It'd be like... a group of Catholics protesting a Kosher deli for selling meat on Fridays during Lent.

[Fr_Chuck]

margog the issue is that you will not open your mind to some truth, you want it your way because you want your way period, And no homosexuality can not be interpreted many ways it is plain that it is wrong, the trouble is that you don't want to admit that you can be wrong, and that unless your way is "right" everyone else has to change their way of thinking and in the end you want to force everyone to accept your belief. In fact you are more guilty of forcing than those you are talking about
And in the end, moral values are and should be a consistent value. Those that see peverted sexual desires are moral are just wrong in every sense but if they wish to do their own desires, it should not be forced on others to have to view, accept and be given special levels.