[john30563]

OK, next question. I have bought a 6000 watt generator. It has four 110 outlets and one 220 "twist style" outlet. What I want to do is wire it into my house temporarily during winter power outages. I know already it will not run my entire house. We have two sets of gas logs, so heat is not an issue. What I really want it to do is run the fridge and one or two maybe rooms of light ( we usually use small lamps in rooms anyway 40 watt) and the TV and DVD player. The way I intend to do this is to first of all throw the main breaker at my entrance to prevent back feeding. Then I want to get a male plug for the "twist style" 220 plug on the generator. Then get a male plug for where my electric clothes dryer plugs in. This is the only 220 appliance in my home with a "plug". Between them I am thinking of using 8/2 bare copper ground wire. It would be about 20 feet long. I would then throw the breakers on my hot water heater and my HVAC so the generator will not try to power those. My questions are this. Will this work? If so what do I need to know about the plugs? Which terminals on the generator need to match which terminals on the dryer plug? Is there anything else I need to know? Thanks!

[Fr_Chuck]

This process is not legal in the US. To be within code for the US, you have to have a auto switch unit that will stop feedback unto the utilties.

[labman]

It will work, people do it. But the big thing you need to know is that it is illegal. Code requires an idiot proof, or at least resistant set up. I have spent a lot of time recently studying the problem. If you have a fairly new Square D box, it can be fairly cheap and easy to do legal, see http://ecatalog.squared.com/fulldeta...number=QOL3125 Scroll down to documentation. The kits are a fairly reasonable $16. Trouble is none of their kits will fit my old GE box.

For more discussion, see https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/electr...use-42426.html
And https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/electr...tch-38571.html

Go back and read those 2 threads. Then come back with specific questions. We will kick things around with others' inputs and maybe come up with safe, legal, reasonable solutions. Tk rusel is the best.

[john30563]

Please read early in my post. At my entrance there is a disconnect. A DISCONNECT. This kills the power either going in, or going out. I plan on throwing this disconnect before powering up the generator. When thrown, this disconnect will not allow backfeed onto the utilities lines. I did not ask about the legality of this. I asked about the process. Thanks!


EDIT:
OK I read the last post. I had to buy a switch when I bought my entrance. It is the main breaker. If I go out and throw it, it kills all power entering the house. I was told this was to protect linemen if someone used a generator. I will check with my local power company to see if I am correct. I just know I had to pay an awful lot for that part of my entrance that I wasn't planning on paying when we built two years ago. Also, BTW, the area I live in does not require inspections, so that portion of the legality is not a problem for me. I don't want to kill no one. But we live in a rural area of the NE GA mountains and last year we were without power for 6 days during an ice storm. The benefits of being on Rural EMC!!

[labman]

Your disconnect will work if it is double throw. What they want is something that makes it impossible to feed into your panel unless it is disconnected from the utility lines. If you checked my Square D link, it is nothing but a metal plate that bolts into breaker box and slides up and down. Normally it is in the down position blocking a breaker fed by your generator. You can shut off the main breaker, and slide the plate up to block it, and turn on the generator breaker. There are also various sub panels you wire in to feed a double throw switch either from the main panel or the generator. They only give a few circuits and run $300-$400.

You have to realize in the big city, they have to take more precautions to keep the idiots from killing them.

I wouldn't really call where I am big city or rural. I don't know if anybody would ever check my set up unless the lineman came by and my house was lit up and a generator throbbing outside. I am not sure what would happen if I had an illegal set up, and I doubt I want to find out. We don't have any inspection here either, but my power comes from one of the largest power companies in the country, and I am sure they demand a legal system.

If you don't have a double throw disconnect, I would seriously look at the interlock plates. Your 6K generator is only slightly smaller than the 6250 I have. I did some figuring. My furnace, fridge, freezer, and pump if they all ever ran at once would only draw 4kw. They are never going to all be running at once unless I am dumb enough to flip the generator on with them all connected. You can do some serious surviving with your 6K generator if you take a little care.

About 2 years ago we had a bad ice storm here that just destroyed the electrical distribution system in a few counties. Some people didn't get power back on for 2 weeks. Fortunately it stayed above freezing. The typical pattern is to drop to zero after a storm. As bad weather sets in, I am getting more and more serious about this.

I have spent a ton of time trying to find reasonable alternatives. One outfit will make a custom plate to fit my box for $250 plus another $150 for a 240 V inlet. The inlets are readily available for $50. It is tough digging up hard numbers and links. Do a search and you see references to this, that, and the other thing, but no prices or links. And plenty of warnings with no help on doing it right.

Run across any good ideas, please post them here.

[john30563]

On the generator, I talked to a guy at my local electric supply shop today and he told me that what the EMC made me buy to go beside my entrance is essentially a 200 amp breaker. He told me that 'legally' I needed a double throw disconnect at a cost of $330. I asked why the breaker would not protect the workers. He said the breaker does prevent back feeding. He said there was no way to back feed through a open breaker, but that the double pole disconnect was how the utilities forced people to spend more money. I can't understand how the utilities would benefit from me giving an electrical supply house money, but he says the 200 amp breaker would work, even though it isn't exactly legal. He made another comment about "What if the power goes off and your wife forgets to go throw the breaker and back feeds?" Well if that is their thinking, what would keep her from forgetting to go throw the switch they want me to buy?? I just can't understand what the difference is between this Main 200 amp breaker and a double pole disconnect? Maybe I am too stupid to understand it.

[tkrussell]

A manual transfer switch, is what they are referring to, and is a double pole double throw switch. It has two inputs and one output, and switches the output to either one input or the other, and is plain terms, foolproof. There is no way you can send power out onto the grid.

If you do what you propose, then you accept all the risk. The first time someone forgets to shut off the main, and send power out on the grid, there is the potential of killing a lineman.

Fortunately, when they are reassembling a grid after a storm, they treat all the wiring they are working on as it is live, and are constantly checking the lines with testers for voltage.

If they find power coming back at them on lines they know should be dead, they send out a supervisor truck with the tic tracer looking for the source of power, and will isolate it with pole switches, clearing the lines, and continue to look for the source.

Once they find your home is sending out power, they will cut your lines from the grid, and I assure you that your home will be the absolute last one re-connected, after the line super pays you a visit, possibly with the local, county, or state inspector to look over your system. They will, if something is not exactly correct, issue a summons to have the work repaired , to code, before allowing power to be re-connected.

And, if a lineman does get injured, or worse, due to your actions, criminal charges will be pending.

That's why they want people to pay what is needed.

[john30563]

How often would one be using a generator do you think? I can only think of two times in the last four years we have needed one. So, I know all about code, law, etc. Could someone here just answer my question... Does that main breaker that the EMC made me buy on the outside of my house next to the entrance stop power from back feeding into the grid, that is my question? I understand there are a lot of STUPID people out there would may well forget to do something as simply as throw a breaker, but I for one am not one of them. I work on all my own stuff, cars, house, etc. I am very self reliant. I am not some scatterbrained geek who would think I can just go crank up the generator and go sit back down in my house. So if there is anyone here who can tell me if that main breaker will cut off the power going back out onto the grid, that would be great.

Oh yeah, by the way, as I stood with linemen last year after being without power for 6 days, they heard a generator and went to the house with me to get it turned off because I knew where the house was. So those guys aren't as stupid either. Thanks!

[tkrussell]

Yes throwing the main switch to Off will isolate your system from the grid. An open switch means current cannot flow in either direction.

[john30563]

I thought it did, I was just here making sure. Thank you very much.

[labman]

Since you mentioned double throw breaker in your water heater thread, I tried to explain what it meant there. OK, the simplest switch just has 2 terminals. Depending on the position of the handle, they are either connected or not. You can add a third terminal, and label the 3 terminals common, normally open, and normally closed-COM, NOC, and NCC. Anything connected to the COM will always be connected to either the NOC or the NCC. The NOC and the NCC will never be connected to each other. Light duty versions of such switches are fairly common, the common 3 way switch, the dimmer switch for your car headlights, the AM/FM switch on older radios, etc.

Oh, by the way, you aren't stupid. There is a lot of confusion over double pole and double throw and connecting generators. In searching for double throw devices, I find many references like your water heater thread where somebody really means double pole. Double pole is just 2 sets of contacts yoked together so when A is connected to B, C is connected to D.

If you poke through the other threads I referenced, you can see there are a number of different, legal ways to connect the generator. So far I have links to anywhere from $16 to $700 for the parts. It may be cheaper for me to buy a new Square D box and one of their plates than anything else I have found. My box could use an upgrade. I have seen vague references to GE making the interlock plates too, but no firm data. I like the interlock plates. Besides being cheap, they allow you to use any circuit in the house. Shut off the refrigerator, freezer, and furnace, and I could cook dinner. Then turn them back on.

[john30563]

I agree with you. The cost of this could be much less than it is. There are a considerable number of people who need generators but probably do not get one due to the confusion and high price of having one. I for one am going to do things exactly as I want and chance it. So long as I know I won't hurt someone, I am not much worried about an inspector coming around to see what I am doing. I mean, the average usage of this thing will prbably be 24 to 36 hours per year. While we were without power last year for 6 days, the average is 12 to 24. So if you really broke it down over say a 10 year period, I am sure the average yearly use is less than 24 hours per year. I can't understand having to spend this kind of money if the Main breaker will protect the linemen.

[labman]

If I wasn't concerned about the inspection issues, I would fabricate a plate myself. I mean a plate with a few slots in it and some shoulder screws? Did you look at the Square D link?

How you doing on the hot water heater? Don't know why you aren't getting some better answers here. I have looked into this generator stuff, but as a general rule, I get away from dogs, and others can give better answers. I am answering less and less in other areas as we add better people.

[tckitt13]

Hi John,

I was planning to do exactly the same thing at my house because of the high cost to "Do It Right" until I did a great deal of research. Here is what I believe is the bottom line for you. Powering your home through your dryer outlet is possible BUT... There are a couple of major problems you need to be aware of:

1. It sounds like your dryer outlet is one of the 3 prong type instead of the newer 4 prong. You said that you wanted to hook up using 8/2 with G (bare copper ground). The correct wiring cable for this outlet would be 8/3 (without ground) as the wires will be 2 hot and one neutral. As you can now see the problem you create with this is that you now do not have a ground connection from your generator to your home breaker box!

2. The cord that you need to hook-up to the dryer outlet will require a male end to go into the outlet at the dryer. If anyone should ever unplug this while the generator is running or if it were to vibrate out of the outlet and someone were to inadvertently touch the exposed prongs... BAD BAD DAY!!

3. OK, and HERE"S THE DEAL BREAKER FOR ME. This is an ILLEGAL ELECTRICAL CONNECTION this is also considered an UNSAFE ELECTICAL CONNECTION it is in direct violation of the electrical Codes and therefore:

YOUR HOMEOWNER'S INSURANCE WILL VERY LIKELY BE VOID IN CASE OF ANY MALFUNCTION. Several people have powered houses through the 3 prong outlets and have ruined refrigerators, microwave, televisions, and many have start fires ranging from minor wiring fires to complete home loss! To me, this made the cost of "Doing It Right" a lot more appealing. I'll still use the least expensive solution I can find, but it will be one that covers my butt liability wise. If a lineman were ever injured, or worse yet, killed and the resulting investigation found an illegally wired generator I don't think you'd stand a chance in a liability court. Liability tort case are out of contol in this country under normal circumstances. I couldn't imagine trying to defend myself against someone's death which may, or may not, have been my fault after the jury finds out that I wired a generator to my home myself in a manner that I KNEW was unsafe and illegal.

If you still insist on taking the risk, at least please add a 4 prong outlet to your home so that you can have BOTH the neutral and the ground connections from the gen to the box. Or, better yet, upgrade your dryer outlet and dryer cord to the new safer 4 prong system.

TK

[BAPA]

I do the same thing, I made a double male cable to go from my powermate to my dryer outlet. When I use my generator, I "remove" entirely the main breaker on top of my box. With no breaker even present, there is no way power can backfeed the lines. Works great, runs my entire house, (using common sense on what we turn on)