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beddows · Aug 23, 2009, 12:41 PM

I have an older home and I am redoing the kitchen. The kitchen outlets are currently split ones as per the code of the day. They are presumably using 14 gauge wire. (or maybe it may be 12 since it is the 3 wire loomex) It is not practical to re-run the wire. One of them is quite close to a kitchen sink and none are GFCI. I do not have any spare breaker space in the panel for GFCI breakers, so I need to use GFCI plugs at the kitchen end. What I want to know is if this would be code:

Change out one of the ganged breakers at the panel end to 20 amp.
Connect both the red & black wires to that breaker (they are 14 gauge). This effectively increases the gauge to handle the additional 5 amps - or does it?

Install 20 amp T type GFCI outlets at the kitchen end, also common up the red & black leads.

I could install a duplex box & use 2 standard GFCI outlets, but then the top & bottoms would not be split & that is not code.

stanfortyman · Aug 23, 2009, 01:22 PM

You absolutely CANNOT do this. You cannot double up on #14 to handle 20A.
Sorry, but your whole idea is way off.

Why not leave it as it is and install a two-pole GFI breaker?

Or, if you are completely renovating the kitchen then do the right thing and re-wire it. The fact that you think it is not practical is not an issue. If you have to re-wire it then that is what you do.
This is a pretty serious project. What does your electrician say?

beddows · Aug 23, 2009, 01:53 PM

No panel space for a GFI breaker since it uses up 2 slots. I suppose I can just skip the GFCI since the outlets already exist & do not have to be touched as such. I just wanted to be a bit safer. My other alternative is to put in a double box & use 2 single GFCI outlets side by side. The only ones of those I have seen have a switch in them, which I guess would be OK. All I am doing is changing my countertop & backsplash. The outlet is current just less than a meter away from the sink. I haven't had an electrician look at it yet. All I know is its almost impossible to get another cable run there from the panel. I need to check if the current wire may in actual fact be 12 gauge. I can't see the sheaf writing, but I should be able to tell by eyeballing it in the panel compared to the other 14 gauge stuff in there. If so, I am guessing I could swap out to 20 amp breakers, use the T connection type & muereete off the extra lead at ever second outlet. I haven't looked, but I suspect it loops from outlet to outlet across the countertop.

Missouri Bound · Aug 23, 2009, 02:04 PM

No panel space?? What kind of panel do you have. There certainly ARE GFCI's which take up just one space. If you are out of room in the panel, you can upgrade your service, or add a sub-panel which will free up circuits. But you can't use short cuts when it comes to wiring your home. Electrical fires are a reality when would be electricians take short cuts.

hkstroud · Aug 23, 2009, 02:28 PM

The use of the term "meter " makes me ask, are you in the U.S.

beddows · Aug 23, 2009, 02:54 PM

Nope. Vancouver, Canada

beddows · Aug 23, 2009, 02:57 PM

The panel is a 200 amp service. It already contains 2 double slot GFCI's for a Jaccuzzi pump & heater. It has plenty of breakers. I suppose it would be possible to double up on some of them, especially those feeding lighting. The house also has 220 electric baseboard heating which explains why its full.

beddows · Aug 23, 2009, 02:59 PM

BTW because this is a townhouse, I can't do my own wiring anyway. Well I can, but I have to have an electrician sign off on it. In the past I have prewired then had the electrician come & hook up the terminations.

donf · Aug 23, 2009, 03:08 PM

Okay, I think you are confusing some core things.

A double breaker is used to feed 240 VAC at whatever amperage indicated on the breaker to the device.

Kitchen receptacles are fed off 120 VAC "Single" breakers. Here in the U.S. it is required that kitchen counter receptacles be fed by 20 amp circuits (two per kitchen) and that they are GFCI protected either at circuit breaker or receptacle end of the circuit.

Is it different in Canada?

KISS · Aug 23, 2009, 03:34 PM

Split breakers anyone to make room?

stanfortyman · Aug 23, 2009, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by beddows

No panel space for a GFI breaker since it uses up 2 slots.

My point was to replace the two existing breakers with a two-pole GFI breaker.

dsawatzky · Oct 13, 2009, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by donf

Okay, I think you are confusing some core things.

A double breaker is used to feed 240 VAC at whatever amperage indicated on the breaker to the device.

Kitchen receptacles are fed off of 120 VAC "Single" breakers. Here in the U.S. it is required that kitchen counter receptacles be fed by 20 amp circuits (two per kitchen) and that they are GFCI protected either at circuit breaker or receptacle end of the circuit.

Is it different in Canada?

This is exactly the same as in Canada