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mr500 · Feb 25, 2008, 09:46 AM

OK... Im wiring up a detached building and I have ran into a small problem. Might be a dumb question but here goes. Im feeding from the box under my meter out to the shed. Im running 6/3 w gnd. I got the shed sub panel under control. But in the box under my meter for the fround wire, there is not place for it. I got 3 coming in from meter, and 4 going out to my house. Going out I have 2 hots, 1 nuetral, 1 green for ground. The green ground wire is in a small buss with on only room for 2 wires. The other wire on this bus is the one from the ground rod. SO, question is the equipment ground from my shed goes where?? Does it feed into the neutral buss, or will it go in where the ground rod and green wire is at in the small 2 wire buss? If it goes with the green and ground, I will be puttin 2 wires in one of the holes due to there is only room for 2 (green gnd and one coming up from the gnd rod)

I have read on this panel that the gnd and nuetral can be on the same buss . Kind of confused because the same gnd connected to the neutral buss in the main panel will be conneted to a gnd rod on the other end.(shed side)

stanfortyman · Feb 25, 2008, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by mr500

I have read on this panel that the gnd and nuetral can be on the same buss . Kinda confused becasue the same gnd connected to the neutral buss in the main panel will be conneted to a gnd rod on the other end.(shed side)

No it is not. The equipment ground run with the feeder is connected to the ground bar in the sub-panel. It just so happens that the wire from the ground rod is connected to the same place.

mr500 · Feb 25, 2008, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by stanfortyman

No it is not. The equipment ground run with the feeder is connected to the ground bar in the sub-panel. It just so happens that the wire from the ground rod is connected to the same place.

OK... so when I connect the feeder to the MAIN svc, I will connect the ground to the smaller 2 wire buss?? That will have me adding 2 wires in one of the buss' slots.

I am wiring up the main panel, NOT the shed outside. All this is in reference to the panel supplying the power. I got the sub panel wired up and all is OK there

donf · Feb 25, 2008, 04:16 PM

Stanforty - Mr 500,

Question: Is this type of connection approved by code? It sounds to me as if he is connecting to the wrong side of the SEP. Almost as if he is using the POCO Service Disconnect box (which belongs to the Power Company as part of its service delivery) and not the SEP?

Isn't the requirement that the SEP is supposed to supply the power and ground for a Secondary Panel in a remote building? You certainly don't want two different ground points because of the problems you would have if there was even a trace current running between grounds?

If I mis-read your original post Mr. 500 I apologize in advance.

stanfortyman · Feb 25, 2008, 05:57 PM

Since mr500 says there are three service entrance conductors before the meter, and four after the meter, I can only assume that this is a meter/main panel. Otherwise there would be no place to terminate the added grounding conductor.

mr500, IS this a meter/main? Do you have a breaker feeding the shed?
You should have a place for all wire terminations.

Is there any possible way to post a pic of this main panel?

mr500 · Feb 25, 2008, 06:44 PM

Hey.. Yeah I can post the pic, but it won't be till tomorrow. It is the same panel under my meter that my AC is wired into on the outside of my house. I have one more space available and want to install the breaker here to run out to the shed. There is a 200amp breaker in this box, and a 200 amp in the panel inside my laundry room. So actually I have 2 main breakers.

I have a place for 3 of the wires. Its just the green wire (the 4th) running to the inside of my house and the ground coming from the electrode does not allow me to attach another wire to either. These 2 wires(bare and green) connect to just a 2 wire small buss. No room for anymore wires at this point. I can back off the lug and slide in another wire then tighten it back down but I don't know how safe n sound this is.

I will try and attach a crude sketch of what I am seeing. No pictures as I am at work right now. PDF and JPG format. Hope you can read it.

Mike

donf · Feb 26, 2008, 07:14 AM

Mr 500,

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that you are tapping onto the Service Disconnect, which is the property of the Power company. That 200 Amp breaker is supposed to be a disconnect for the SEP inside the house. You are messing around on hot wires from the Power Company.

Secondary or "B" panels are supposed to be run off the SEP. At no time should you be inside of PoCo boxes. If you are not wired to the SEP, then you have no disconnect to the shed. If you throw the SD breaker, you kill everything after the meter, however, the feed into the SD is still hot. Just like the feed into the SEP is hot if you switch the main breaker on the SEP.

Please call the Power Company to make sure you are not playing on their equipment. Since the NEC does not regulate the Service Delivery side, if you are adding a wire to PoCo's side, you are putting their techs at risk because they will not know that the wire is there and where it goes.

stanfortyman · Feb 26, 2008, 12:13 PM

MR500, from your image it looks to me like this is a meter/main/feed-through panel.
Does it have a meter; main breaker; then several breaker spaces?

If so then you are fine and you can do just as you intend.
The main disconnect is your property. The ONLY thing that is the POCO's is the meter itself. You are NOT allowed however to mess around in the meter section of this enclosure. This is why they lock it with a tag.

mr500 · Feb 26, 2008, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by stanfortyman

MR500, from your image it looks to me like this is a meter/main/feed-through panel.
Does it have a meter; main breaker; then several breaker spaces?

If so then you are fine and you can do just as you intend.
The main disconnect is your property. The ONLY thing that is the POCO's is the meter itself. You are NOT allowed however to mess around in the meter section of this enclosure. This is why they lock it with a tag.

I am BELOW the meter. Yes it has meter, main, then breaker spaces. The order coming out of the weather head is... METER... THEN.. Panel box.. IN this box is a MAIN breaker. If I throw this breaker then I kill power to the house and anything in the panel box. This is also where my AC is wired into. If this is the power company property why is the AC breaker wired in this panel? I am not IN the meter I am on the bottom where the 3 meter wires feed out and into the panel

So my original question is , on the bottom feed out, where does my ground go for my building? As you can se in the crude drawing, the grounds are connected to that one small 2 wire buss! Unless I loosen one of the lugs and slide my ground in with another wire, I don't see a place for it to go. UNLESS I buy another boss that will hold another ground wire and replace the one I have now. TIA
Mike

stanfortyman · Feb 26, 2008, 01:58 PM

THIS is your main service panel, so all the grounds and neutrals are on the same bars. Can you rearrange them to make room? Do not double up on wires of this size.

You should be able to get add on bars for grounds. If you do this be sure to only put grounds on this add-on bar.

donf · Feb 26, 2008, 02:27 PM

Mike - Stan,

I know I can be an obstinate person, but what I understood you to say is that you have an overhead drop connected through the weatherhead to the meter. From the meter, there is a box below the meter that is connected via Service Cable to a small breaker panel, which now also feeds the AC. Also, the Service Entrance conductors go from this box to the SEP (main panel) main cut-off breakers.

The main cut off breakers wIll kill the power to the inside panel of breakers but not the breakers outside. However the breakers contained within the outside box will kill all power to the SEP main breakers and therefore any circuit beyond those breakers as well as the breakers within the external box that controls the AC and you want to use for the shed? It still sounds like there is a direct connection from the meter base to this outside box which is feeding the AC in two directions. If that is true then it's still a problem because the AC should be on an Independent circuit. Wouldn't this be a subpanel feeding a subpanel and neither of them are protected by the SEP?

Mike, if you shut down the SEP main breakers (the ones at the very top of the Main panel inside the house), is there still power being supplied to this box below the meter, which is external to the house, yes or no?

Stan, is it not true that by code, there can only be one service entry point, not two one for the inside the home and one for the AC and remote shed outside the home?

stanfortyman · Feb 26, 2008, 03:16 PM

Don, I don't mean at all to sound condescending, but I think you need to understand the concept of a feed-through panel, then you will see what we are trying to explain.

What 500 has is a meter/main feed-through panel. It really is just what is described:
A meter portion on top (or side); then a main breaker; then several branch circuit breaker spaces; then lugs out the bottom (this is the feed-through function).

The main breaker kills EVERYTHING. The branch breakers are typical branch breakers. The lugs out the bottom are tied right into the main busses. The lugs feed the full panel amperage out if needed. The only breaker for the feed-through lugs is the main breaker.

donf · Feb 26, 2008, 03:40 PM

Stan,

Believe me when I say you are not condescending. I'm more than happy to learn something. Trust me I will spend some time studying the NEC Code to see if I can find a "Feed Through Meter".

So if I'm following you correctly, to cut service to the panel inside the house, you would need to go outside to this pass-through meter and open those main breakers? Curious, how does the homeowner know this?

Don

mr500 · Feb 26, 2008, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by stanfortyman

THIS is your main service panel, so all the grounds and neutrals are on the same bars. Can you rearrange them to make room? Do not double up on wires of this size.

You should be able to get add on bars for grounds. If you do this be sure to only put grounds on this add-on bar.

OK. This is what I wanted to know. The only grounds I have are 1 going to the electrode, and the other running into the house. SO what I will do, is buy another buss take these 2 ground wires install them in this buss and ADD my equipment grnd and run that my shed. OK. I can do that

The other comment. Stan, NO I do not have to go outside to turn power off to my house. I have a main IN MY panel box located in my house. If I throw the one in the house, the house dies BUT my AC and shed will still have power. NOW I if throw the main that is in the sub box UNDER the meter, it will shut everything off to include my house, the AC unit and my shed. I am down stream so to speak from the meter. I have not taken out the meter, nor have I broken the lock tab. I am below it. This is a modular home and this is the way that they wire up there boxes. All of them have this either on a pole or attached to the house like mine. I don't know WHY they give me 2 mains, one in and one outside but its just the way it is on my house.

Hope that clears it up. Im not an electrician etc.. But just a glorified DIY . It is a pass through box, supplying power in one side, through 2 or so breakers then out the other side which in this case is out to my house.

One more question for you. Locally it is extremely hard for me to find 6/3 I am finding. SO someone suggested using Aluminum 2-2-4-6 which is as he put it 2 #2's for hots, 1 #4 for neutral and one #6 for ground and I can direct bury this. A little cheaper by 50 bucks from copper. Also stated this can carry right at 100 amp. Does this sound OK to do in your opinion? I know using bigger wire, I might have to get reducers for the buss's but that not a problem.

Your thought are appreciated

Mike

mr500 · Feb 27, 2008, 01:33 PM

Ok

donf · Feb 27, 2008, 04:05 PM

Stan,

Okay, this what I'm concerned about, two main power cut offs. I still haven't dug up the pass-through panel box yet, but my 3 year-old nephew was here from yesterday through today to baby-sit me.

Why would you have two disconnects? Is it possible the passthru panel was only installed as a SE point for the AC and nothing else?

TK, are you following this thread?

stanfortyman · Feb 27, 2008, 04:30 PM

No, not two main shutoffs (although there is nothing prohibiting that). One main breaker feeds the whole panel.

I'll see if I can find a pic/diagram.

mr500 · Feb 27, 2008, 04:32 PM

Well I don't know if it is for the ac only. Most every mobile home built I have seen has this set up. I don't know why there are 2 mains. All I know is it works for my AC and my well pump. I don't think Im am into the pwr co stuff.
\

Here is a link to a box similar to mine EXCEPT my breaker box and meter are separate from each other by about 8 inches.
Find Ringed Main Panel, 200 Amp and other Panel Boxes at Aubuchon Hardware

As you can see/read this one has feed through lugs just like mine

Still wondering about the 2-2-4-6 I am more concerned about the Neutral size in this cable.. the #4. is it going to be OK?

Mike

mr500 · Feb 27, 2008, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by stanfortyman

No, not two main shutoffs (although there is nothing prohibiting that). One main breaker feeds the whole panel.

I'll see if I can find a pic/diagram.

I must have read your mind. I was posting a pic when I came back on and read your post. :eek:

stanfortyman · Feb 27, 2008, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by mr500

Find Ringed Main Panel, 200 Amp and other Panel Boxes at Aubuchon Hardware

As you can see/read this one has feed through lugs just like mine

I found that one as well. Damned if I can find a pic of the internals for Don. :(

Originally Posted by mr500

Still wondering about the 2-2-4-6 I am more concerned about the Neutral size in this cable..the #4. is it going to be OK??

You are fine. A reduced neutral is fine for a feeder such as this.