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Hi
I am replacing all of the appliances in my kitchen.
Currently I have:
- cook top – attached on 220V, 2x40A beakers
- oven – attached on 220V, 2x30A beakers ( red, red, white wiring)
- fridge – attached to the outlets on 110V, 30A beaker
I am buying:
- slide-in range – I will attach it to the old cook-top wiring
- dishwasher – “15A, 110V” required
- microwave – ‘15 OR 20 A, 120 Volts’ required (1.2kW)
- fridge – ‘15 OR 20 Ampere, 115 Volts GROUNDED CIRCUIT IS REQUIRED’
- garbage disposal
The question I have is what are the optimal, save, and legal electrical connections. I am planning to convert the 220V (3x30A beakers) into 2 x 30A x 110V and I have an extra 30A beaker for the outlets. I don’t want to install new breakers.
Choice 1
– dishwasher + garbage disposal on one 30A breaker
– microwave on the second 30A breaker
– fridge attached to the countertop outlets – 30A breaker
Choice 2
– dishwasher + garbage disposal on one 30A breaker
– microwave + fridge on the second 30A breaker
Choice 3
– dishwasher + microwave disposal on one 30A breaker
– garbage disposal + fridge on the second 30A breaker
Since the appliances will be using all standard 15 or 20 amp receptacles, you are not able to use the existing 30 amp breakers. You need to have at least two appliance 20 amp circuits in a kitchen just for the counter outlets. The fridge can be included in these circuits. The DW,disposal, and microwave should be considered as stationary appliances and are in addition to the appliance circuits.
Using all #12 wire and 15 or 20 amp devices and 20 amp breakers, use one circuit for the frige and one counter outlet, one for the DW and disposal, one for the microwave, and another for one more circuit for counter outlets.
Using 30 amp breakers is not standard and never done and is not allowed for what you proposed.
Hi tk
Thanks for the answer. Seems that I can not use the existing 30A breakers for the purpose. My original kitchen is very old and this is that’s why they used 30A breaker for the kitchen outlets.
I have the following question. Seems that I need total of 4 x 20A breakers to complete the rewiring. Is it possible to use the existing wiring for the 3x 30A breakers (the wire seems to be thicker than #12) and replace the breakers with 20A to match the receptacles. And I will need to add only one extra circuit/breaker?
As far as the wire size, need to be sure what size it is, and insure you have at least #12 wire to these appliances and outlets. You can get a wire stripper that will have a wire gauge builtin at any hardware/tool store.
Yes seems you will need one additional 20 amp breaker and circuit.
Hi Tk
Thanks a lot. You seem to be an expert and I hope you don’t mind if I ask you a last question.
As you can guess the kitchen is old ~40+ years and the wiring is done without ground wire (hot + neutral only). I would like to ground all of the kitchen circuits – outlets and appliances. Is it ok to do this locally (only in the kitchen) by grounding everything to the nearby pipe. For example use #10 wire and ground everything to a single spot. My 220V uses 3 wires (red/red/white) and I want to use one red, one white and ground for the two new 110V circuits.
Sorry, no short cut here. If you want, and really should since you are remodeling, all the outlets and appliances grounded, then all new cable that has a ground wire, such as Romex, technically NM-B cable, needs to be installed.
What you proposed is not allowed.
The 240 volt cable idea is fine, but only for one 120 volt circuit, the 3 wires will get you 1 hot, 1 neutral, and 1 ground. Not sure how you plan to get tow circuits with only 3 wires, of course, unless you plan with no ground.
Yes I can consider myself an expert. Been working in the electrical field since 1972, worked my way up from apprentice to a Licensed Master electrician in two states, and a State Certified Electrical Inspector, along with being an insurance inspector. Haved wired more homes than I can count, from 750 sq ft bugalows to mansions, and 400 unit luxury apartment buildings, supermarkets, malls, strip plazas, high rise office buildings, and from light to heavy industrial plants, IT data centers, on, and on and on.
For the last several years I have been involved with the more scientific approach to electrical service by doing inspections and surveys of power quality, preventive maintenance using hig tech instruments such as infrared cameras, ultrasound detectors, and many other "toys". to find and solve problems before they become disasters.
In a nut shell, I know some stuff.
I will only tell you the way it should be , to conform to code, and to be safe and secure with the wiring that is done. It is your home, some things I say may not be agreeable, so it is your choice to do whatever you think is best.
And I do not mind, ask as many questions you need to get it right.
Hi tk
Seems there is no easy way out, if I want to have the grounding done. Even for the new range “ELECTRICAL GROUND IS REQUIRED”, so seems that I have to pull a new 4-wire’s cable (currently the two 220V circuits have 3 wires) or a separate ground wire.
Just to make sure I understand what you are saying I will repeat what I am going to do, and please let me know if there is any problem.
- use new NM-B 3-wire #12 cables for the 20A circuits.
- install 4 x 20 A circuits / breakers
- microwave
- fridge + one outlet
- DW + GD
- more countertop outlets
- pull a single ground wire just for the 220V range
- connect all green wires from the cables ( 4 greens) and the ground from the 220V to the neutral line in the junction box (I assume that this is the correct place to ground all electrical circuitry in the house. Let me know if this is not coorect)
I am an electrical engineer myself, but working in a ‘micro’ world of IC’s. I think I can handle the job of wiring my kitchen, but just want to make sure that I follow the building code and is safe.
Thanks again
OK, just a few clairfications:
The 3 wire is called 2 wire and the ground is understood, or call it 2 wire w/ground.
No single ground wire allowed for the range either.
All the cables, with grounds need to be brought back to the panel. If the panel has a main breaker/fuse in it, the grounds and neutrals all connect to the main neutral bar, if the main is remote, outdoor for example, then the neutrrals only connect to the main neutral bar, and the grounds need to connect to an equipment round bar that is bolted directly to the panel back box.
I am completely confused about the terminology then. My 220V has 3 wires – red/red/white. I know that the two reds are 110V each w.r.t. to the neutral, but out of phase to each other. Thus they add up to 220V. I assumed that the white is called neutral, but what you are suggesting is that it is actually ground as there is no current flowing through it (all of the current is drown through the reds). If this is the case, then the circuit is actually grounded and I don’t need to pull an extra wire or reinstall it. Is that correct? The requirement for the range is “40 Ampere, 120/240 Volts, 60 Hertz (1/second). 3-WIRE OR 4-WIRE. ELECTRICAL GROUND IS REQUIRED”
My panel has a main breaker and is located outside the house, but on the side of the stucco. I think is grounded , because I can see a thick bare copper wire (probably #8) connected to the neutral and going down, most probably to the ground. I guess I can buy a tester to verify if it’s grounded.
Is the cable with the two reds and one white the cable that is part of the range? What exactly is this cable? Is the cable a metal type? If so the metal raceway can be the ground, and the white is a neutral.
Are you measuring 220 volts?
Is this in the USA? Canada?
Lets get thru this, the 3-WIRE OR 4-WIRE. ELECTRICAL GROUND IS REQUIRED will then get explained, if I try now it will only confuse you more. I need to get a better idead the type of cable and where your located.
Yes if the main breaker is at the meter, the you should see that ground wire.
This means the any neutrals need to be separated from equipment grounds in the panel.
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