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Jengel · Oct 12, 2006, 08:44 AM

Hey guys I need some help and found this forum. I want to thank you in advance for any replies.

I have the main power wire that comes into the
Garage; it has a black-white-and bare wire. The black and white both have 120 going through them. That is then hooked to a 60amp
Breaker. Then wire is run from that to the new breaker box where I hooked the white and
Black up to the power bus bar and the bare to the ground, however this leaves the
Neutral bar with no wire running to it. I then hooked up the breakers as
Follows Black to the breaker white to the neutral bar and bare to the ground.
This is not working. If you have any ideas please feel free to remind me that I
Have no idea about electricity. :)

tkrussell · Oct 12, 2006, 09:19 AM

When you say The black and white both have 120 going through them. Does that mean testing across them you have 120 volts?

Black white and bare feed may be 240 vols acoss the black and white, with the bare as the neutral.

This is typical for the utility feeder. Where does this black, white, bare come from? Once this feeds a main breaker, from that point on, the neutral should be insulated and a fourth green or bare wire becomes the equipment ground.

Before we go any further I need to know more information for the questions I asked.

If the black and white is hot and neutral, and you have the neutral on a hot leg in the panel, you are going to have a serious problem on your hands.

You should be asking questions before you are working on these wires.

Stop whatever you are doing, shutoff any power, and find out what you have and need to do before proceeding.

Jengel · Oct 12, 2006, 10:43 AM

When I use the volt meter and touch the white wire I have 120 then if I touch the black wire I have 120. The bare does not have any current. The wire that is coming into the garage, I think is coming from the main. I am sure that this is not up to code but I am poor and can't afford to redo the wiring. I am going to draw out what I have done and post it. Be right back.

Thanks You Very Much!

Jengel · Oct 12, 2006, 10:46 AM

Here is a drawing to best of my design

Jengel · Oct 12, 2006, 10:57 AM

How do you test this. I have tested each the black and white on there own and each has 120 so a total of 240.

Jengel · Oct 12, 2006, 10:58 AM

I think that the guy who set this up connected it to the main. I am not sure.

bhayne · Oct 12, 2006, 11:05 AM

I think I see it. You're garage box is supplied from a 60A breaker in the main panel. Yes?

You should check the voltage between the black and white main conductors. Just because each conductor carries 120V doesn't mean you have 240V between them (you may have 0V between them).

Either way, you either have a 240V supply or a 120V supply, not both.

tkrussell · Oct 12, 2006, 11:11 AM

OK across the black and white is 240 volts. The bare is intended to be the neutral, This type of cable is intended to be most likely an aerial cable that is used from utility pole to a home service, which then changes over to another type of cable or conduit to a meter.

The type of cable you have is not allowed to be used inside any building because of the bare neutral. The neutral must be insulated inside a building.

And, once you leave a main switch, a fourth wire, either bare or insulated wire is created starting at the main switch grounding lug, and is the equipment ground.

If this cable you have ends at a circuit breaker, the bare is the neutral, the neutral bar gets grounded with a ground rod(s), and any branch circuit equipment grounds and neutrals conneted to the neutral bar.

Anything beyond this is incorrect, improper, and unsafe.

Jengel · Oct 12, 2006, 11:48 AM

So coming in to the breaker box I need to up the bare to the neutral, the going out to the lights I need to hook both the white and bare to the neutral bar?

Thanks

tkrussell · Oct 12, 2006, 11:56 AM

Yes, the incoming bare connects to the neutral bar, the neutral bar must be grounded with a ground rod, then the white and bare from the branch circuit connects to the neutral bar.

bhayne · Oct 12, 2006, 12:16 PM

You do not have proper wiring for a subpanel. Even a ground rod will not be acceptable because you are using a bare conductor (a bonding conductor) to transmit power.

You can get by with your panel supplying either 120V or 240V but not both unless you replace the feed cable with a 3 Conductor (3C) cable. The bare wire is not considered a conductor and neither is ground (which rules out the ground rod). A proper 3C cable will have three insulated wires and a bare wire (typically black, red, white and bare).

Thus, your electrician made a mistake.

tkrussell · Oct 12, 2006, 01:17 PM

There are some popular types of cable with bare wire used only as a neutral.

Many homes use SEU cable as a service riser, through the meter, ending at a panelboard.

Triplex, a generic type of aerial cable, with code names like Conch, Palamino,Periwinkle, depending on the wire size There are thousands of miles of this type of cable used as aerial utility distribution feeding homes and businesses across North America.

Each of these two types of cables has a bare conductor that is to be used only as a neutral.

I suspect the poster has one of these cables feeding the 60 amp breaker that he states is in the garage.

A subpanel can be added downstream of the existing disconnect switch, and the neutral in the disconnect must be grounded with at least one, possibly two, ground rods.

From the 60 amp breaker disconnect four wires must be used, with both the neutral and ground to the subpanel connected to the grounded neutral bar in the disconnect.

bhayne · Oct 12, 2006, 02:37 PM

From the drawing and the post heading, a 60A breaker (in the main panel) feeds the garage subpanel. I don't see any main breaker in the garage subpanel.

To connect it as a 120V only panel, you must first buy a single pole, 60A breaker for your main panel. Install it in place of your 2 pole breaker that supplies your garage subpanel. The single pole breaker has only one terminal. Connect black to that terminal. Connect white to the neutral bus. Connect bare to the ground bus. Do not connect any of the garage subpanel conductors to the incoming lugs on the main panel.

At the garage subpanel, jumper A side to B side using extra supply cable that feeds the subpanel. Terminate the black to A or B terminal screw. Terminate white to the neutral bus and bare to the ground bus. In the garage subpanel only 120V is available so only use single pole breakers and connect loads as shown in your drawing.