Hello all. I have extended the wires from an unused 240 outlet to the backyard for a spa via a sub-panel. I also hooked up a new grounding electrode near it to avoid having to run a fourth wire all the way back to the main panel. This fourth wire goes to the small grounding bar in the sub-panel and from there to the spa.

The 50 amp circuit trips instantly when I turn it on. Is this because the wire that was originally used for grounding in the outlet is still connected to the grounding bar? Should I disconnect it from there and move it to the neutral bar? Some of these bars have jumpers so what difference would it make anyways? Help...

tkrussell

The neutral must be isolated and insulate from the equipment ground and from the metal box of the panel. No grounds , only neutral connect to the neutral. If the 50 amp CB is a GFI,should be feeding a spa, the white pigtail needs to connect to the neutral bar. And only bare or green grounds connect to the equipment ground bar, which must bolt to the metal box of the panel.

If this helps, great, if not some pictures will help seeing some detail.

Lone Ninja

Thanks for the quick response! In the sub-panel the two bars are separated and the pigtail is going to the neutral bar from the GFCI 50 amp for the spa. And I have the ground connected as you said.

But I suspect that my problem lies in the Main Service panel not in the sub-panel. So in the Main Service Panel should I move the third wire that is not hot from the ground bar over to the neutral bar? Now that it is serving as a neutral wire in the rest of the connections.

tkrussell

You got me on this one, which wire is not hot? The neutral from the sub panel? Any mis wire here may casue the GFI CB to trip, but I would like to get more detail.

If the main breaker is located at the main panel, the grounds and neutrals all connect together, sounds like you do not have a main breaker in the main panel.

Lone Ninja

I sorry for the confusion, I had very detailed post and then did something stupid and lost it. So here I am re-writing it.

Prior to my mettleing, there was an electric range in the kitchen. It was later upgraded to gas. This outlet has a 50 amp CB in the main service panel that operated just fine on last check. That 240 outlet was not being used so I replaced it with a junction box and ran the wire to the backyard. Once in the back yard I added a sub-panel with a 50 AMP GFCI for the spa. Now the spa requires four wires and I only had three from the outlet (two hots and one bare to ground the original outlet). I installed a new fourth wire and hooked it up to a new grounding electrode and to the spa's ground via the grounding bar in th sub-panel.

When it didn't work I realized that I have wired what was being used as the grounding wire in the outlet (the bare one) to act as the neutral wire for the spa. So if I am right the power is trying to return to the power source via the "neutral" wire and since it is still connected to the grounding bar in the main it trips the CB.

So my solution is to (in the main) disconnect this bare wire from the grounding bar and move it to the neutral bar in the main in order to complete the circuit. What do you think?

tkrussell

Sounds like you are using the bare neutral as a ground also, or have it connected wrong. The bare wire of a three wire SEU cable is neutral, and not a ground, esp if the unit feeding it feeds needs a speaparte ground.

And this wire should not touch any ground before getting back to the neutral bar, which can happen easily in junction boxes, etc. This cable is used for circuits that allow for the neutral and ground to be connected together , and is not used for GFI's.

You may need to run a temporary ground wire, or neutral to show that this cable may need to be replaced with a four wire cable.

Lone Ninja

Thanks again for the response. I'll check it out again tonight when I go home and let you know what I find.

Lone Ninja

Okay, I looked at it again and it seems to be connected up the way it's supposed to be. Originally, when the three wires were hooked up to the outlet I'm sure that the third bare wire was being used as a ground.

Now that I have extended the wires to the backyard I wired that third bare wire to function as the neutral for the spa. I installed a fourth wire to a new grounding electrode and it goes through a grounding bar that is connected to the sub panel box and does not touch anything else.

The problem is it's not working (I thought you'd like that). But after I looked at it again tonight I noticed that my main service panel has only bar. This bar is the grounding bar and the neutral bar. I don't get it, obviously I'm missing something but how can the neutral bar also be the grounding bar. What's to stop the current flowing back on the neutral wires from going to the ground instead of where it should go?

So if the panel has a grounding/neutral bar what difference does it make if it it's touching the sides of the junctions box or elsewhere? I still need to check and see if it is touching the junction box just be sure. But I'm just getting real frustrated, can you tell? I'll try and post some pics soon.

tkrussell

Yes please if you can furnish pictures of the main panel, the sub panel, and the connect at the spa will be very helpful. I want to see you have this wired correctly, and grounding is very important to a spa.

I understand your frustration, but need to be patient to get this right. Neutrals and grounding in panels can be confusing.

tkrussell

Yes please if you can furnish pictures of the main panel, the sub panel, and the connect at the spa will be very helpful. I want to see you have this wired correctly, and grounding is very important to a spa.

I understand your frustration, but need to be patient to get this right. Neutrals and grounding in panels can be confusing.