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    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #1

    Mar 14, 2009, 03:32 AM
    What's in a name ?or ."just words"
    Yesterday the Obama Administration made headlines by announcing that they will no longer use the words "enemy combatant " to describe jihadists scum who are enemy combatants.

    However in court it will argue that it has broad authority to continue to detain people formerly called "enemy combatant " in GITMO .The Justice Department argued that the president had expansive authority to detain terror suspects there without criminal charges, much as the Bush administration asserted. It provided a broad definition of those who can be held.As long as GITMO remains open ,the Obama Adm. would aggressively defend its ability to hold detainees there.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/14/us...s/14gitmo.html
    “The president has the authority to detain persons” who planned or aided the 2001 terrorist attacks as well as those “who were part of, or substantially supported, Taliban or Al Qaeda forces,” administration lawyers wrote.
    Clearly this is a distinction without a difference. Some critics of Guantánamo said that Friday's filing fitted a pattern of recent moves by the administration that seemed intended to undercut continued criticism of Guantánamo but did not make significant changes in detention policy.


    “This seems fundamentally consistent with the positions of the prior administration,” said Steven A. Engel, who was a senior lawyer responsible for detainee issues in the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel until the final day of the Bush administration.

    Mr. Engel added that the term “enemy combatant” was not the issue. “The important point is that they recognize that we can detain members of the enemy” during a war, he said.
    This is ,as predicted here, a case where reality has prevailed over lofty campaign rhetoric.

    Maybe we can come up with a designation more acceptable to Obama. I already called them jihadists scum ;but that may be offensive and lacking PC . Perhaps "innocent victims" ,"undocumented freedom fighters" or "undocumented guest killers" ,"honored guests","misguided friends"... oh I know... "bad boys" or "mischievious yoots".
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #2

    Mar 14, 2009, 04:52 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Maybe we can come up with a designation more acceptable to Obama. I already called them jihadists scum ;but that may be offensive and lacking pc .
    Hello tom:

    I suggest we call them zucchini. But, I'd rather be talking about adjudicating them rather than renaming them. All Obama is doing by his name change game, is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

    excon
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #3

    Mar 14, 2009, 05:08 AM
    I like "undocumented freedom fighters" in honor of Cindy Sheehad, and of course Michael Moore who wanted to "stop the Orwellian language and start using the proper names for things."
    galveston's Avatar
    galveston Posts: 451, Reputation: 60
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    #4

    Mar 14, 2009, 10:11 AM

    A skunk by any other name-----.

    By all means, try them. A military tribunal, and if convicted, reasonably early execution.

    That way, some other lunatic will not be able to kidnap more innocent victims, demanding the release of the first group.

    We will not win this war wearing kid gloves.
    twinkiedooter's Avatar
    twinkiedooter Posts: 12,172, Reputation: 1054
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    #5

    Mar 14, 2009, 05:11 PM

    Why not just call them "them" and "us"? Makes for a lot less noise and covers everyone.
    George_1950's Avatar
    George_1950 Posts: 3,099, Reputation: 236
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    #6

    Mar 16, 2009, 06:22 AM

    "KING: Since taking office, President Obama has done these things to change the policies you helped put in place. He has announced he will close the Guantanamo Bay detention facility. He has announced he will close CIA black sites around the world, where they interrogate terror suspects. Says he will make CIA interrogators abide by the Army Field Manual, defined waterboarding as torture and ban it, suspend trials for terrorists by military commission, and now eliminate the label of enemy combatants. I'd like to just simply ask you, yes or no, by taking those steps, do you believe the president of the United States has made Americans less safe?

    "CHENEY: I do. I think those programs were absolutely essential to the success we enjoyed of being able to collect the intelligence that let us defeat all further attempts to launch attacks against the United States since 9/11. I think that's a great success story. It was done legally. It was done in accordance with our constitutional practices and principles. President Obama campaigned against it all across the country. And now he is making some choices that, in my mind, will, in fact, raise the risk to the American people of another attack."
    VIDEO: Cheney: Obama wants 'massive expansion' - Mike Allen - POLITICO.com
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #7

    Mar 16, 2009, 06:34 AM

    Hello George:

    I know YOU think Cheney is da bomb, but MOST Americans don't. That's why they got thrown out on their ears...

    In fact, I think Cheney should be in jail.

    excon
    George_1950's Avatar
    George_1950 Posts: 3,099, Reputation: 236
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    #8

    Mar 16, 2009, 06:42 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post

    In fact, I think Cheney should be in jail.

    excon
    Bwa ha ha!
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #9

    Mar 16, 2009, 11:49 AM

    The European nations of Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, Belgium, Switzerland and other countries said they'd help us close GITMO . Now they are having 2nd thoughts.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/16/wo...itmo.html?_r=2

    The reason ?

    The Bush administration often failed when it asked other countries to accept detainees, partly because those requests were usually accompanied by public comments defending the imprisonments by describing the detainees as dangerous terrorists.
    The new administration is sending a different message. “We are less vested in trying to prove that these people are rightly held,” the senior State Department official said.
    Given that stance by the Obama administration, some European officials say Washington's focus on sending the detainees to Europe raises many questions.
    Germany's interior minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, has suggested publicly that if Guantánamo detainees pose no security risk, there is no reason the United States should not take them.
    So ; if they are dangerous the Europeans don't want anything to do with them . But if they are not dangerous there is no reason why the US can't keep them or release them . But if we keep them then we are still subject to European America-bashing for keeping GITMO open .
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #10

    Mar 16, 2009, 12:06 PM

    Hello again,

    I wonder if the dufus broke it soooo badly, that it just can't be fixed. That certainly looks to be so.

    excon
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #11

    Mar 16, 2009, 12:38 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again,

    I wonder if the dufus broke it soooo badly, that it just can't be fixed. That certainly looks to be so.

    excon
    And you called us silly? Bush broke the whole world, yeah that's reasonable.
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #12

    Mar 16, 2009, 02:13 PM

    Tom,

    I hope you're not complaining.

    If it turns out that Obama is going to keep the terrorists in Gitmo, then I've got no complaints about what he calls them.

    It makes no sense to complain if we're getting what we want.

    If, on the other hand, Obama decides to let 'em go free, we've got something to complain about.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #13

    Mar 17, 2009, 02:49 AM

    Just pointing out something mentioned during the campaign ;that he would have to shift his policies from his campaign rhetoric .

    My bigger issue is that we are letting the judiciary make foreign policy . What was precident during the FDR Administration has been completely blocked by the courts despite the Executive and Congress working together to create the tribunal system(Military Commissions Act of 2006 ). Back then SCOTUS rightly opined FDR was within his wartime powers .

    The framework is in place for tribunals but recent court decisiions and Obama's stated policies have prevented justice for these jihadists scum to proceed.

    It's gotten so bad that KSM and a group of GTMO detainees have openly declared that they formed a committee that planned 9-11. But they will probably end up in the civilian justice system where evidentary discovery procedures will allow them access to national security related items that we can't possibly permit them access to.

    KING: I'd like to just simply ask you, yes or no, by taking those steps, do you believe the president of the United States has made Americans less safe?

    CHENEY: I do. I think those programs were absolutely essential to the success we enjoyed of being able to collect the intelligence that let us defeat all further attempts to launch attacks against the United States since 9/11. I think that's a great success story. It was done legally. It was done in accordance with our constitutional practices and principles.
    President Obama campaigned against it all across the country. And now he is making some choices that, in my mind, will, in fact, raise the risk to the American people of another attack.
    KING: That's a pretty serious thing to say about the president of the United States...
    CHENEY: Well...
    KING:... and commander in chief of the military. So I want to give you a chance, because many people will say, Vice President Cheney just said Barack Obama, President Obama is making us less safe, more at risk, which you just said. I want to give you a chance -- and take as much time as you want -- to prove it. Because you put that list up there, and I know you say there have been three cases, I believe, of waterboarding in the past, and you say that specific things have been prevented. I know some of this is classified intelligence, but now that you're out of government, to the degree that you can, tell the American people, because of those tactics, because of those, yes, sometimes extreme tactics, we stopped this.
    CHENEY: Well, I would say that the key to what we did was to collect intelligence against the enemy. That's what the terrorist surveillance program was all about, that's what the enhanced interrogation program was all about.
    KING: But another 9/11, because of a tactic like waterboarding or a black site, can you say with certainty you stopped another attempt to do something on that level?
    CHENEY: John, I've seen a report that was written based upon the intelligence that we collected then that itemizes the specific attacks that were stopped by virtue of what we learned through those programs. It's still classified. I can't give you the details of it without violating classification, but I can say there were a great many of them. The one that has been public was the potential attack coming out of Heathrow, when they were going to have several American planes with terrorists on board, with liquid explosives, and they were going to blow those planes up over the United States.
    Now, that was intercepted and stopped, partly because of those programs that we put in place.
    Now, I think part of the difficulty here as I look at what the Obama administration is doing, we made a decision after 9/11 that I think was crucial. We said this is a war. It's not a law enforcement problem. Up until 9/11, it was treated as a law enforcement problem. You go find the bad guy, put him on trial, put him in jail. The FBI would go to Oklahoma City and find the identification tag off the truck and go find the guy that rented the truck and put him in jail.
    Once you go into a wartime situation and it's a strategic threat, then you use all of your assets to go after the enemy. You go after the state sponsors of terror, places where they've got sanctuary. You use your intelligence resources, your military resources, your financial resources, everything you can in order to shut down that terrorist threat against you. When you go back to the law enforcement mode, which I sense is what they're doing, closing Guantanamo and so forth, that they are very much giving up that center of attention and focus that's required, and that concept of military threat that is essential if you're going to successfully defend the nation against further attacks.
    All the proof needed is in the revelation that a former GITMO detainee is now a commander of the Taliban .
    The Associated Press: Officials: Afghanistan Taliban leader was at Gitmo
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #14

    Mar 17, 2009, 05:17 AM
    Janet Napolitano, 51, is President Obama's new Homeland Security Secretary. She spoke with SPIEGEL about immigration, the continued threat of terrorism and the changing tone in Washington.

    SPIEGEL: Madame Secretary, in your first testimony to the US Congress as Homeland Security Secretary you never mentioned the word "terrorism." Does Islamist terrorism suddenly no longer pose a threat to your country?

    Napolitano: Of course it does. I presume there is always a threat from terrorism. In my speech, although I did not use the word "terrorism," I referred to "man-caused" disasters. That is perhaps only a nuance, but it demonstrates that we want to move away from the politics of fear toward a policy of being prepared for all risks that can occur.

    Such nuance. 9/11 wasn't an attack where 3000 Americans were killed, the WTC was destroyed and the Pentagon damaged extensively by Islamic terrorists... it was a "man-caused" disaster. Just words.

    SPIEGEL: You would like the German authorities to share personal data of terrorism suspects, such as fingerprinting and DNA?

    Napolitano: That is exactly right. We will also want to share some experiences with counter-radicalization, how the radicalization of young Muslims in our countries can be prevented.

    That's right, we have a blueprint for appeasement - "US MUSLIM ENGAGEMENT - Changing the Course." We're going to spend billions of dollars to focus on "teacher training and curriculum in middle and high schools and colleges" to "education on Islam and Muslims." I wonder if Michael Newdow is going to file suit.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #15

    Mar 17, 2009, 05:31 AM
    Add to that the Durban II will propose the world outlaw anti-muslim speech while they collectively trash Israel .They will pass anti-blasphemy against Islam resolutions and anti-Israeli resolutions .
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #16

    Mar 17, 2009, 05:36 AM

    Hello again, tom:

    You know on the other thread where I said that Republican ideas have been repudiated, and that if you want to rebuild the Republican party, your going to need a different spokesman than Cheney...

    Well, I'm saying it again on THIS thread.

    I know you think he's da bomb, but MOST Americans think he's the vice dufus.

    Quoting HIM, ain't helping your cause.

    To you STEVE, yes, we're changing course... Do you remember the slogan of OUR new president?? Change I can believe in... Now, YOU don't have to believe in it, but I do.

    excon
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #17

    Mar 17, 2009, 06:00 AM

    Did not quote him because he is a spokesman.. I quoted him because he is right and I agree with what he said in the interview.

    The fact that Obama has only played lip service to GITMO and is adopting Bush strategies in Afghanistan shows me that change is more rhetoric than reality .
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #18

    Mar 17, 2009, 06:12 AM

    Ex, change is coming (aside from the areas he's following in Bush's footsteps) but it isn't change I can believe in. But for a guy known for calling things what they are, what's the good in calling Islamic terrorism "man-caused" disasters?
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #19

    Mar 17, 2009, 06:20 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    But for a guy known for calling things what they are, what's the good in calling Islamic terrorism "man-caused" disasters?
    Hello again, Steve:

    I don't care what they call 'em, as long as they try them, and keep the bad ones locked up. Does that mean that I think there very well may be innocent ones there??

    It sure does, Bub.

    excon
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #20

    Mar 17, 2009, 06:26 AM

    I think the question was "what's the good in calling Islamic terrorism "man-caused" disasters?"

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