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tomder55 · May 11, 2012, 05:07 AM

Right back at you . Both your countries murder babies too.

NeedKarma · May 11, 2012, 05:50 AM

Ok.

talaniman · May 11, 2012, 06:00 AM

We not only murder babies, we murder everybody,

Stand Your Ground: Florida voters support law - Sun Sentinel

Age is only a number apparently!

speechlesstx · May 11, 2012, 06:20 AM

Quite a leap from believing in your right to self-defense to "we murder everybody."

FirstChair · May 12, 2012, 04:44 PM

Where is this thread headed now... I'm not sure we want to go there? Other issues in other countries…? Maybe another thread for that.

One Quote to share and I'm assuming some of you have seen it flying across the Internet and it's a point of view about life, about life out there and life here.

"If a single living cell was found on a distant planet, scientists would exclaim that we have found life elsewhere in the universe...

So why is a single living cell found in the womb of a pregnant woman not considered life?”

http://www.ehd.org/prenatal-images-index.php

paraclete · May 12, 2012, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by tomder55

right back at you . Both your countries murder babies too.

Yes its remarkable how trends that start in the United States are slavishly followed everywhere, it is as though we must extend your definitions of freedom to include us. Freedom to commit mayhem, Freedom to commit murder, Freedom to run off at the mouth, Freedom to corrupt government, Freedom to dominate whoever you like or don't like as the case may be. You know it is remarkable how you got rid of that other freedom enshrined in your constitution, Freedom to own slaves. I cannot imagine what the world would be like with 40 million more of you exercising your freedom

TUT317 · May 12, 2012, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by FirstChair

Where is this thread headed now...I’m not sure we want to go there? Other issues in other countries…? Maybe another thread for that.

One Quote to share and I'm assuming some of you have seen it flying across the Internet and it's a point of view about life, about life out there and life here.

"If a single living cell was found on a distant planet, scientists would exclaim that we have found life elsewhere in the universe...

So why is a single living cell found in the womb of a pregnant woman not considered life?”

http://www.ehd.org/prenatal-images-index.php

Hi F.C.

I can answer that question but it may take a little time to present both sides of the argument.

If we accept that abortion is a moral issue (which it probably is) then we can look at it in three possible ways.

Basically, we can look at the debate in a few ways. Pro-abortion supporters tend to cite what is called a naturalistic explanation for their actions. In other words, our judgements as to whether certain actions right or wrong can ultimately be reduced to scientific explanations.

They agree that a single living cell is life. This living cell might divide into a billion living cells, but they would say it is still just life. The problem is that the cells haven't developed into a sentient being as yet. This is where the scientific definition comes into it. Science claims that it can tell us when a fetus becomes conscious. Once it becomes conscious it is regarded as sentient. I don't know what this translates into weeks and/or months; you could look that up.

We don't need to go to another planet to find life. Most people tread on insects and don't give it a second thought. We slaughter animals for food. Some people do give this a second thought but generally speaking most people are happy with this be cause there is the knowledge that most other life forms are not conscious in the way humans are.

Personally I am against abortion because I take what is called the emotivist position. Without going into too much detail I don't think that moral judgements in this particular instance can be reduced to scientific explanations.

In a nutshell no one know what consciousness actually is. If we don't know what consciousness is how can we claim to know the point when a living thing becomes sentient?

Tut

P.S.

There is a non-naturalist explanation as well.

talaniman · May 13, 2012, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by FirstChair

Where is this thread headed now...I'm not sure we want to go there? Other issues in other countries…? Maybe another thread for that.

One Quote to share and I'm assuming some of you have seen it flying across the Internet and it's a point of view about life, about life out there and life here.

"If a single living cell was found on a distant planet, scientists would exclaim that we have found life elsewhere in the universe...

So why is a single living cell found in the womb of a pregnant woman not considered life?”

http://www.ehd.org/prenatal-images-index.php

I think its not an issue of definition, but how we treat the fact that it is life, as Tut points out, none of us has a problem stepping on bugs, and that's life too! Maybe the answer lies in how we treat other humans, and NOT compare that with "other" life! Since we consider ourselves as unique and separate beings from one another, then maybe recognizing and tolerating each others beliefs, and opinions as valid, and valued equally is a start.

Without respecting each others views, everything devolves into right and wrong, and creates conflict, NOT reasoned resolutions. Facts or beliefs fall by the wayside as powers that be take on side, or another, further stifling reasoned resolutions as communications are but rhetorical exclamations, and NOT debate.

That's no way to move forward. I respectfully submit, that if innocent life is so precious, why is it not as precious as it matures, and grows, or starts its descent-back to non existence?

tomder55 · May 13, 2012, 03:50 PM

Without respecting each others views, everything devolves into right and wrong, and creates conflict, NOT reasoned resolutions. Facts or beliefs fall by the wayside as powers that be take on side, or another, further stifling reasoned resolutions as communications are but rhetorical exclamations, and NOT debate.

That's no way to move forward. I respectfully submit, that if innocent life is so precious, why is it not as precious as it matures, and grows, or starts its descent-back to non existence?

I am unaware of any law that says someone already born can be murdered , Tal ,there is no compromise on this issue . How could there be ? Either you believe that there is human life in the womb that has a right to life ,or you don't .

talaniman · May 13, 2012, 04:06 PM

If its NOT your womb, then I believe you should mind your own business, and if you are NOT going to be responsible for that life in the womb, then you cannot, or should not force that responsibility on the womb owner! I maybe against abortions, but I have NO womb. Neither do you.

The death penalty is legalized killing by the state, and WAR, is legalized on the federal level, and stand your ground is legalized killing if you feel like it, and none of the above is applied in a fair or reasonable way. At least not in my view.

tomder55 · May 13, 2012, 04:24 PM

I said murder ,not killing .

talaniman · May 13, 2012, 05:06 PM

Define the difference!!

tomder55 · May 13, 2012, 05:50 PM

Murder is an unjustified killing.

talaniman · May 13, 2012, 06:07 PM

Abortions are not against the law, murder is! Justification is left to a jury, or your own conscious. Not to an individual with an opinion or belief. Not a group of individuals with a shared opinion or belief.

paraclete · May 13, 2012, 07:48 PM

Whether abortion is legalised murder is a question of whether your legislature has any moral fibre or not.

talaniman · May 13, 2012, 08:22 PM

The judiciary of the US Supreme courts have alreay said its legal. States disagree. They make laws that make abortions hard, if not impossible within their state, but that only stops the poor and working poor, because money can buy many things, including an abortion.

TUT317 · May 13, 2012, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by paraclete

Whether abortion is legalised murder is a question of whether your legislature has any moral fibre or not.

Hi Clete,

The legal system is bound by the legislation of the state country. In places where abortion is legal there would be a cut off point where an abortion can legally be performed. After this period (whatever the number of weeks/months) the procedure MAY be subject to criminal code. I use the word may because there are always extenuating circumstances.

A women who wanted an abortion at, say 8 weeks, would not be charged with murder in a state that has legal abortion. This is regardless of the fact that the judge may well feel this is tantamount to murder. If it so happens that an abortion is performed after the designated time for that particular state, then it MAY be a criminal act. Again this is regardless of what the judge thinks.

That's my understanding of how the law would work. Perhaps someone else may know the legal side of things better than myself.

FirstChair · May 13, 2012, 10:12 PM

A womb use to be a safe and warm place for an unborn at all stages of development... yet doctors go inside as intruders and killers taking the life of the developing baby making it the most dangerous place for unwanted growing and viable babies. Perhaps in some place in some space of time, if it is only for a moment, even the next life, all of us as humans might be allowed to hear what the screams and cries of all those babies sound like when they express in unison, the moment they were murdered. Because it is men's law does not make it God's law.
Here's how they kill viable babies! Actually in my opinion all stages are viable in a baby's development inside the womb. They feel pain beginning at 16 weeks in the womb or at least that is the earliest detection. We kill or allowed to be killed our own kind. What has happened to the sanctity of human life in this world of every nation, country and people?

"Doctors on Fetal Pain"

"Abortion at 20 weeks

Despite the fetus's advanced development at 20 weeks, the following abortion procedures are used:

■Dilation and Evacuation (D&E): Sharp-edged instruments are used to grasp, twist, and tear the baby's body into pieces. This continues until the child's entire body is removed from the womb. U.S. Supreme Court Justice Kennedy describes the procedure saying, “The fetus, in many cases, dies just as a human adult or child would: It bleeds to death as it is torn limb from limb.”
■Digoxin abortion: A drug called digoxin is injected directly into the baby's heart, giving the fetus a fatal heart attack. The dead baby is then removed from his or her mother by dismemberment.
■Saline abortion: Salt water is injected into the womb through the mother's abdomen. The fetus swallows this fluid, is poisoned, and dies in a process that sometimes takes 24 hours.
■Partial-birth abortion (D&X): The baby is delivered feet first, up to the head, which is then punctured at the base of the skull. The brain is then suctioned out, killing the child. (A federal ban on this method was upheld in 2007.)"

http://www.doctorsonfetalpain.com/

talaniman · May 13, 2012, 10:49 PM

Abortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for making the case for FREE contraceptives. Then we don't have to cause all that pain right?? Yet many who support NO abortions also are against contraceptives and we know forced abstinence never has worked through out history any where in the world.

What's next, forced sterilization?

paraclete · May 13, 2012, 11:01 PM

Don't run to the ridiculous Tal just because you begin to see the evils of abortion, contraception is a different if related issue. The whole argument exists because we exist in a heddonistic society which has no moral values and the excuse that the Surpreme Court says it is legal is no excuse. The Surpeme Court is a not an arbiteur of public morals Not everything that is legal is desirable