[paraclete]

It's a crisis that has been building for months and I predict it will be known as the euro crisis or pigs in the parlor Why pigs Portugal Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain
Crisis Spreads in Europe - WSJ.com
We have the ludicous step that basket case economies in danger of failing themselves are being asked to bail out the largest basket case of all, Greece, thereby almost ensuring a knock on effect. The dominoes will fall and when they do they will take the EU with them. Once again the too big to fail theorists are raiding the public purse, surely the cure is elimination of national boundries and national governments for these incompetent dolts

[tomder55]

The EU was always an ill conceived idea. . If I were a German I'd resent the subsidizing of a nation that irresponsibly created a nanny-state based on benefits without work.
Rather than elimination of national borders the answer lies in the breakup of the EU and a return to national currencies .

Similar to the EU being forced to bailout the PIGS ;
Keep your eyes on State debt here also. There is no way a blue state Prez will allow a dysfunctional blue state like California go down without some kind of national government response. States that have kept their budgetary house in order will be called on to "cough up" . It will hasten the destruction of the federal system.

But no doubt ,that is part of the plan.

[paraclete]

The EU was always an ill conceived idea. . If I were a German I'd resent the subsidizing of a nation that irresponsibly created a nanny-state based on benefits without work.
Rather than elimination of national borders the answer lies in the breakup of the EU and a return to national currencies .

Simular to the EU being forced to bailout the PIGS ;
keep your eyes on State debt here also. There is no way a blue state Prez will allow a dysfunctional blue state like California go down without some kind of national government response. States that have kept their budgetary house in order will be called on to "cough up" . It will hasten the destruction of the federal system.

But no doubt ,that is part of the plan.

The problem with Greece is like Scotland, all the smart ones have left. The EU should go back to it's original concept and ignore the eastern states

Yes Tom America might look better if it went back to it's original concept and allowed greater California to reform. There would then be no need to keep Mexicans out and you loose responsibility for some of those more disfunctional places with strange ideas

[paraclete]

This thing has escalated to the truly seriel. Last week it was all the people of Europe could do was find $110 billion to bail out Greece, the population of which are still in deniel and we were assured that the rest of the pigs were okay and now in a weekend of largesse we have $1 trillion voted to support the sinking Euro and discussion of the support the UK might need. Europe's expansion has ceased and the talk now turns to the break up of the EU. Has Europe once again gone a bridge too far and taken on the basket case economies of Europe. As I said it's time to forget the national boundries either Eourope is one or just a bad idea

[tomder55]

Nice ,now the US is not only bailing out our own banks ;but through this plan the US will be contributing an addition $250 billion (at least ) through direct payments by the IMF,to bail out Swiss banks .

Can we put the discreditted Sir Keynes to sleep once and for all ? It is truly pathetic listening to economists who argued last year that governments should prime the pump with money they don't have ;to now having them say "stop spending and go into austerity !!! " Hello??

You are right that the UK will joing the PIGS within a year . Maybe that's why the candidates are not making a great effort to solve the electoral deadlock .

[paraclete]

You are right that the UK will joing the PIGS within a year . Maybe that's why the candidates are not making a great effort to solve the electoral deadlock .

Yes the GFC and its fallout becomes an electoral poison chalace, whoever takes on creating the UK fix will be out of office for a generation after the next election. Even in my own country which survived the GFC without much more than rising interest rates will see the government that took on the challenge defeated, we have had enough of inept politicians and the Smith and Keysenian games of unbridled capitalism and pump priming

[tomder55]

The thing GB got right was keeping it's own currency. At least they can inflate it if things really get tough.

[paraclete]

The thing GB got right was keeping it's own currency. At least they can inflate it if things really get tough.

I don't think devaluing currency is the fix all it used to be. It might help your exports but it makes for inflation in prices and that adds to problems when deep fiscal measures such as increased taxes and increased interest rates are in effect. At least all of this will solve the European problem of immigration for a while, no jobs, no immigration. Economic theory doesn't work so well in a credit crisis,it takes money flowing for economic theory to work.

Now we see the falacy of allowing manufacturing industry to migrate to China.

[tomder55]

I'll say it again . The biggest fallacy is the nanny state. As Maggie Thatcher said (paraphrase ).. socialist will spend until they run out of other people's money.

[paraclete]

I'll say it again . The biggest fallacy is the nanny state. As Maggie Thatcher said (paraphrase ) ..socialist will spend until they run out of other people's money.

I agree you can take it too far, but you free marketeers in the US have lost the moral high ground in this debate after bailing out, (nationalising) banks, insurance companies and the auto industry and now you are bailing out the nanny states of Europe. Won't be long before you will want that sort of support yourselves, when it comes to spending OPs BO has beaten everyoneelse hands down. You may have started the GFC but I think Europe will end it for you. I'm glad I live in a country that isn't big enough to bail anyone out, we just help them with their redundancy programs

By the way how do you spell bottomless pit in one word, we are in the land of the unknown unknowns

[tomder55]

My only reply is... don't blame us "free marketeers". We opposed the bailouts even as some pseudo-self proclaimed capitalists went to Washington with hands out.

[paraclete]

my only reply is... don't blame us "free marketeers". We opposed the bailouts even as some pseudo-self proclaimed capitalists went to Washington with hands out.

Come on Tom what capitalist wouldn't take a handout, but their days are numbered, thank the Lord.

[tomder55]

come on Tom what capitalist wouldn't take a handout

Too many would . But then again they are forced to conduct their business under the restraints of a government that most often has no clue what it takes to do their business.
Regulations are often placed without any idea how that will impact operations ;taxes are inconsitently applied ,often leaving an uncertain business climate to operate in ;and the government destructively subsidizes based on what the government perceives as the public interest... often choosing winners and losers in the market place .

Under that environment ;a business has no choice but to make the best deal it can with the entity that holds the largest control on the businesses right to exist .

Do you think Goldman Sachs wanted the government bailout ? Hell no... they tried to decline and were not only forced to accept it ;but were also forced to take on a whole new business they dod not want to undertake.