[excon]

Thus far the examples these pathetic race baiters have given us are imaginary so what exactly are we getting away with?

Hello again, Steve:

Let me see if I can spell it out again for you... SOME of the criticism towards Obama is related to his policy, and SOME is related to his race.

I'm not sure which part of the above you consider "we" to be in. If you're one of the former, then YOU aren't getting away with anything. If, however, you deny the existence of the latter, you enable their racism...

Let's take Joe Wilson. Tom thinks that I think he's a racist because Maureen Dowd told me so... In fact, I'm fully capable of making up my OWN mind about such things...

Indeed. When I examine Joe Wilsons PUBLIC RECORD, my mind reasons that he's a racist. After all, he SUPPORTS flying the symbol of Confederacy over the state capitol building in Columbia... That act, all by itself, tells me he thinks the people who enslaved black people were just fine, thank you very much... But, he did MORE. He had the tenacity to smear Strom Thurmons BLACK daughter by saying that her intention by coming forward, was to SMEAR Strom Thurmond... It's actually VERY disgusting... To anyone with half a brain, his racism is clear.

Given his disdain for people of color, when he yells "you LIE" at the nations first black president, it isn't a stretch for me to assume what words he's thinking, but not speaking...

However, if you find the public record of Joe Wilson to be VOID of racist implications, then you're part of the problem...

excon

[spitvenom]

You know Ex I was thinking the same thing You beat me to the punch about Joe wanting the Confederate Flag flying in South Carolina. Everything that flag stands for is racist. Plain and Simple. And of course here is the link.

Joe Wilson Confederate Flag

[speechlesstx]

Let me see if I can spell it out again for you... SOME of the criticism towards Obama is related to his policy, and SOME is related to his race.

What criticism is related to his race? Have I, or tom or ET ever said anything critical that was race based? What GOP leaders are criticizing him based on race? Which talking heads? Who? What? When?

I'm not sure which part of the above you consider "we" to be in. If you're one of the former, then YOU aren't getting away with anything. If, however, you deny the existence of the latter, you enable their racism...

I have never, ever denied the existence of racism. In fact I said yesterday, "Once and for all, racists are scumbags." But this alleged racism talk this week is coordinated bullsh*t.

However, if you find the public record of Joe Wilson to be VOID of racist implications, then you're part of the problem...

I haven't defended Wilson on anything yet have I? He may very well have hints of racism in his public record but none of this is about that. This is manufactured outrage and it's incredibly unnecessary, irresponsible and dangerous. I'll be damned if ever support anyone in a party that looks at me as a racist and I will call them out on this pathetic, irresponsible bullsh*t.

[ETWolverine]

Excon,

Let me get this straight...

Wilson isn't a racist because he called Obama a liar, he's a racist because he supports the continued use of the Confederate flag, which is a long standing symbol of Southern culture supported by lots of people who have nothing to do with racism.

I guess you hate the Dukes of Hazzard... them Duke boys must be a bunch of racists, ridin' around in the General Lee with a Confederate flag on the roof.

There were actually six different Confederate flags, excon.

This one was called the "Stars & Bars" and was the first Confederate flag in existence.

File:CSA FLAG 4.3.1861-21.5.1861.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There were several different versions of the Stars & Bars, with 7, 9, 11 or 13 stars, depending on how many states had joined the Confederacy at that point.

Then there was the "Stainless Banner".

File:Confederate States Naval Ensign after May 26 1863.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It featured the "Union" (the X with the stars on a red background) placed in the upper right corner of a white flag.

Then came the "Blood Stained Banner".

File:Confederate National Flag since Mar 4 1865.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was similar to the Stainless Banner, but with an additional vertical stripe of red to the right of the Union.

There was the "Bonnie Blue".

File:Bonnieblue.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A White Star on a Blue background.

The most famous is the "Battle Flag of the Confederacy".

File:Battle flag of the US Confederacy.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It simply featured the Union symbol.

And there was the "Naval Jack of the Confederacy".

File:Jack of the CSA Navy 1861 1863.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

7 white stars in a circle on a blue background.

All of these were in common use during the Civil War. And before. And afterward.

There was the "Succession Flag of South Carolina".

File:SC-SovFlag.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It featured a horizontal and vertical cross of white stars on blue, inside a red background with a crescent moon and palm tree in the upper right quadrant. It included 15 stars. I don't know why, since there were only 13 states and territories that secceded. 14 if you count Missourri, who's seccession may not have been legal.

So... which of these do you think is associated with racism? Which of them are associated with Southern pride and culture? Which of them would Wilson have been right or wrong to support the continued use of? Which of them was he actually supporting the use of? Do you even know? Or have you simply decided that the Confederate Flag is a racist symbol without understanding what that even means?

Elliot

[excon]

Hello again, Steve:

Let me ask you this... I again bring up the Mark Fuhrman episode on Hannity. His opponent on the panel was a black guy.

Did that happen because FOX just happened find two people on opposite sides of a debate?? I hardly think so. FOX is NOT staffed with dummy's. Putting this known racist in ANY setting where his opposition is black, is either highly insensitive, a mistake, or was coldly CALCULATED. I suggest the latter. I cast no aspersions about doing it. It's good TV and brings ratings. But, I suggest it WAS calculated to provoke a racial response. It certainly did with me. As they watched, what do you think was going through the minds of the racists out there who AGREE with Mark Fuhrman?? Do you think they were debating the issues in their minds - or thinking about race?? Why do you think FOX would do that? Do you think they forgot about the OJ trial?? I don't think they did.

Do you think I'm just making all this up out of wholecloth??

excon

[ETWolverine]

Hello again, Steve:

Lemme ask you this... I again bring up the Mark Fuhrman episode on Hannity. His opponent on the panel was a black guy.

Did that happen because FOX simply found two people on opposite sides of a debate??? I hardly think so. FOX is NOT staffed with dummy's. Putting this known racist in ANY setting where his opposition is black, is either highly insensitive, a mistake, or was coldly CALCULATED. I suggest the latter. I cast no aspersions about doing it. It's just good TV and brings ratings. But, I suggest it WAS calculated to bring about a racial response. It certainly did with me. What do you think was going through the minds of the racists out there who AGREE with Mark Fuhrman???? Don't you think it brought out racist sentiments in them??? Why do you think FOX would do that? Do you think they forgot about the OJ trial??? I don't think they did.

Do you think I'm just making all this up out of wholecloth???

excon

What does this have to do with Maxine Waters' comments, or those of Jimmy Carter, or those of Maurine Dowd?

Maxine Waters was talking about the Tea Bag Rally and those who supported it, and the fact that they should be investigated.

Dowd and Carter were accusing Joe Wilson of racism when he said "you lie" during Obama's speech.

Where is the connection between Hannity and Fuhrman and what those three race baiters were saying?

As for why Fuhrman would appear on Hannity opposite a black man... well, I didn't hear a single racial outburst from Fuhrman on the show. Not one. Nor from Hannity either. Did you? What I saw was a civil, if heated, discussion of issues.

So... where is YOUR PROOF OF RACISM ON HANNITY?

So you can't even make THAT case, much less one that Dowd, Waters and Carter are right.

You're being ridiculous, excon. There may be racism in this country, but your examples sure don't prove it.

Elliot

[excon]

You're being ridiculous, excon. There may be racism in this country, but your examples sure don't prove it.

Hello again, El:

I don't make sense to dinning room tables, do I? But, to PEOPLE, I do.

excon

[excon]

Hello again,

Not two minutes ago, FOX news conducted an "opinion dynamics poll". It found that the opposition to President Obama's policies are:

65% Honest disagreements

20% Motivated by racism.

Hmmm.. 20% of FOX viewers agree with me... Whaddya know about that? You're in the 65%, and don't EVEN believe there IS a 20%. I got it.

excon

[Catsmine]

Elliot,

I'm afraid I have to come down on Ex's side about the Stars'n'Bars, which pains me deeply as a proud southern gentleman. The flag which once stood for State's Rights and against unconstitutional Unionist tyranny has been pre-empted by General Stewart's vigilantes in their sheets and hoods and turned into an emblem of hatred, oppression, and regressivism. Racism is only a part of KKK ideology, but in this discussion it is the salient one.

[paraclete]

Now, before we disregard President Carter, we should keep in mind that this is the person who single-handedly created a 4-year recession, created the Community Reinvestment Act which was a major cause of our CURRENT financial crisis, mangled the Iran Hostage Crisis, created double digit unemployment, mishandled the OPEC fuel crisis, negotiated the failed North Korean nuclear program agreement which has directly lead to NK's current attempts at nuclear armament, has traveled the world to denigrate the USA and criticize US policy, and has accused Israel of attempted genocide for defending themselves against terrorist attack and over 4,000 missile attacks from Palestinian-held lands.

There. NOW we can disregard him.

Elliot

A true lefty then

[ETWolverine]

a true lefty then

Yes, Carter was about as far to the left as you could get without actually being a member of the Communist Party. "Progressive" doesn't begin to describe him.

[ETWolverine]

Elliot,

I'm afraid I have to come down on Ex's side about the Stars'n'Bars, which pains me deeply as a proud southern gentleman. The flag which once stood for State's Rights and against unconstitutional Unionist tyranny has been pre-empted by General Stewart's vigilantes in their sheets and hoods and turned into an emblem of hatred, oppression, and regressivism. Racism is only a part of KKK ideology, but in this discussion it is the salient one.

Cats, I understand your point. Problem is that we don't know if the Stars & Bars is the flag that Wilson was supporting. The SC Succession flag is also considered a "Confederate Flag" and doesn't even have the Union on it. Which flag was Wilson supporting to continue to fly? I don't know, and I'll bet excon doesn't either. There are 6 to choose from.

Do you watch Dukes of Hazzard? Is it a racist show because the General Lee has the Stars & Bars on top?

Elliot

[excon]

Do you watch Dukes of Hazzard? Is it a racist show because the General Lee has the Stars & Bars on top?

Hello again, El:

Here's where you're being disingenuous, or you're being THICK.. I don't think you're thick... You seem to think someone has to UTTER racist remarks in order to BE a racist... If you don't HEAR anything - no racist there... What they DO, ain't got nothing to do with racism.

You seem to think some TV car that has a flag painted on it means the SAME thing as when the STATE fly's it...

I think you UNDERSTAND nuance and context and history. I think you SEE the obvious, but your winger credentials won't let your brain absorb what your eyes are looking at. That can only mean one thing.

excon

[speechlesstx]

Not two minutes ago, FOX news conducted an "opinion dynamics poll". It found that the opposition to President Obama's policies are:

65% Honest disagreements

20% Motivated by racism.

Hmmm.. 20% of FOX viewers agree with me... Whaddya know about that? You're in the 65%, and don't EVEN believe there IS a 20%. I got it.

They did a survey, which found 20% think opposition to Obama’s policies is motivated by racism. They don't know, they just think so. By far the majority doesn't think the opposition is motivated by race, and the majority sampled were registered Democrats. So just what exactly have you proved here? Nothing.

[ETWolverine]

Hello again, El:

Here's where you're being disingenuous, or you're being THICK.. I don't think you're thick... You seem to think someone has to UTTER racist remarks in order to BE a racist... If you don't HEAR anything - no racist there... What they DO, ain't got nothing to do with racism.

And what did Wilson "do"?

You seem to think some TV car that has a flag painted on it means the SAME thing as when the STATE fly's it...

Can you explain a difference? If it's wrong to fly the Union, then it's wrong. It doesn't matter who it is, does it. Or are you saying that it's wrong for the State of South Carolina to show the Confederate Flag, but fine for CBS to do so for 6 years on a TV series? You probably think that the standards ought to be different... cause you like one and don't like the other.

But again we don't even know what it was that Wilson supposedly wanted to fly... WHICH FLAG was he talking about? You are assuming it was the Stars and Bars, but you don't really know and have no proof.

I think you UNDERSTAND nuance and context and history. I think you SEE the obvious, but your winger credentials won't let your brain absorb what you see. That can only mean one thing.

Excon

Actually I do understand nuance, especially the way you try to use it to set up double-standards. There's a "nuance" in saying that it's OK for CBS to fly the confederate flag but not the State of SC. There's a "nuance" in saying that someone must be a racist even though you have no evidence of it being true, and when asked to provide such proof cannot do so, but still make the claim because you "feel" that it's true.

So yes, I understand "nuance", especially the way you are trying to use it. And I reject it utterly. "Nuance" is just another way of saying "justification"... you are justifying claims of racism that can not be proven.

When you are stuck with "nuance" as your argument, it's because you got no other argument.

Elliot

[excon]

They did a survey, which found 20% think opposition to Obama’s policies is motivated by racism. They don't know, they just think so.

Hello Steve:

So, you don't think that 20% of the FOX viewers were just telling the truth about themselves? Okee doakee.

excon

[speechlesstx]

Lemme ask you this... I again bring up the Mark Fuhrman episode on Hannity. His opponent on the panel was a black guy.

Did that happen because FOX just happened find two people on opposite sides of a debate??? I hardly think so. FOX is NOT staffed with dummy's. Putting this known racist in ANY setting where his opposition is black, is either highly insensitive, a mistake, or was coldly CALCULATED. I suggest the latter. I cast no aspersions about doing it. It's good TV and brings ratings. But, I suggest it WAS calculated to provoke a racial response. It certainly did with me. As they watched, what do you think was going through the minds of the racists out there who AGREE with Mark Fuhrman???? Do you think they were debating the issues in their minds - or thinking about race??? Why do you think FOX would do that? Do you think they forgot about the OJ trial??? I don't think they did.

Do you think I'm just making all this up out of wholecloth???

No, I think it highlights exactly what I'm talking about. YOU think Fox did it on purpose with the OJ trial in mind. I think they did it without a hint of racist controversy in mind. That's how I think, that's how I live, it's how I grew up... as the overwhelming minority remember? I STILL live in a minority neighborhood and I see people as people, I don't LOOK for racism at every turn. FNC has a long history of having a most diverse guest lineup and I have never seen anything that would demonstrate even a remotely racist attitude.

I believe that's how the majority of Americans think as well, and there is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that Wilson's outburst was fueled by racism. It's entirely inexcusable for people like Carter, Dowd and Johnson to indict the American public in this way, and they should be ashamed for their cowardly attempts to guilt us into kowtowing to their agenda.

[speechlesstx]

Hello Steve:

So, you don't think that 20% of the FOX viewers were just telling the truth about themselves? Okee doakee.

No, you're misrepresenting the question.

Thinking about Barack Obama’s policies, some people say those who oppose Obama’s policies are mostly motivated by racism, while others say opposition to Obama’s policies is based on honest disagreements — which comes closer to your view? Do you think opposition to Obama’s policies is motivated by racism or based on honest disagreements?

* Based on honest disagreements 65%
* Motivated by racism 20%

The question wasn't "is your opposition to Obama's policies motivated by racism or honest disagreement?" They are answering with an opinion on the motivation of others, not themselves. 20% think everyone else is motivated by race.

[excon]

Hello Steve:

Sometimes there's a YOU I'm talking to... and sometimes there's an US. You slip and slide between the two..

I BELIEVE you. I DON'T think you have a racist bone in your body. I DO think you have racists in your party. I think you DENY it, and I don't know why. Maybe, like the Wolverine, your winger credentials prevent you from seeing it...

I say that, because even after you are aware of the public record of Joe Wilson, you say his public outburst wasn't based upon his racist views. I believe somewhere above, you even conceded that he IS a racist. Yet, like Maureen Dowd, you deign to know what's in Joe Wilson's head, when he yelled at the first black president of the United States...

You are free to believe that it came from his stance on policy... I don't know WHAT evidence YOU have of that, any more than I have about what he's thinking... Except, I DO have his RECORD on MY side. That's bigger than what you got.

excon

[tomder55]

I know better . Snoozeweak told me this week that we are all racists from birth.
Even Babies Discriminate: A NurtureShock Excerpt. | Newsweek Life | Newsweek.com