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Why jesus
Why christain people pray to jesus when there is the creator of jesus?
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People mistakenly pray to Jesus because they have not been taught any better. Jesus is the intercessor with God for us. Just like in the Old testament, the Israelites were not allowed to go directly into the inner temple they needed a priest to speak to God for them. Jesus is that intercessor for us.
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I pray to God, in the name of Jesus.
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 Originally Posted by freshjive
John 20 28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God. 2 Peter 1 1 Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained equal faith with us in the justice of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ. Hebrews 1 1 God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, 2 In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high. 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels hath he said at any time, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. 7 And to the angels indeed he saith: He that maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom. The Jews sacrificed Him because they understood He claimed to be God: John 5 18 Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God. John 19 7 The Jews answered him: We have a law; and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. Sincerely, De Maria |
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Like the answers coming out, your searching that's good, you can never get enough answers to be saved, and walk with the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. In this day and age, everyone needs someone and can't imagine not looking for answers that can help you. |
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Originally Posted by freshjive
Col 1:15-17 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. NKJV |
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John 1:1-3 (New Living Translation) John 1 Prologue: Christ, the Eternal Word 1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, And the Word was God. 2 He existed in the beginning with God. 3 God created everything through him, And nothing was created except through him. |
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John 1 Prologue: Christ, the Eternal Word 1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, And the Word was God. 2 He existed in the beginning with God. 3 God created everything through him, And nothing was created except through him. Ahmed Deedat, in his book The Choice, recalls a conversation he had with a Christian minister: I asked the Reverend whether he knew Greek? "Yes", he said, He had studied Greek for five years before qualifications. I asked him what the Greek word was for "God" the first time it occurs in the translation - "and the Word was with God"? He kept staring, but did not answer. So I said, the word was HOTHEOS, which literally means "THE GOD"... which in turn is rendered - God. "Now tell me, what is the Greek word for God in the second occurrence in your quotation - "and the Word was God"? The Reverend still kept silent... the game was up. I said the word was TONTHEOS, which means a god. (Ahmed Deedat, The Choice, Brunswick, Australia: Islamic Service House, p. 192; also published in, Christ in Islam, Durban, RSA: IPCI, 1993, p. 40) |
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Originally Posted by Dare81
I don't know who Ahmed Deedat is, but clearly whoever this minister was, he did not know Greek very well. John 1:1 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. NKJV The key portion of this passage that we need to focus on is the part which states "..the Word was God.". It appears that we both acknowledge that the reference to the Word is a reference to Jesus, this is a critical passage. The original passage in Greek reads: kai theos en ho logos. The definite article applies to the subject, which is this case is the Word. The Word is the subject, not God. Second thing to understand about Greek is that the word order may vary, but is important for the purposes of emphasis. In the original Greek, theos is the first person or item mentioned, and though the words may be in any order, the word which is put first is placed in that position for emphasis. The "word" comes later in the sentence. Thus, in Greek, it would read, "What God was, the Word was". In English, we translate this to "The Word was God". Your reverend translated this to read "the Word was a god" based upon a mis-translation of the Greek, making the assumption that "ho" translates to "a" in English, and also assuming that hen "theos" does not have an definite article, it should be assumed to have an indefinite article (Greek does not have an indefinite article). Without trying to get into details of Greek translation, we can demonstrate that this is not correct by simply showing that in Greek, the one true God is referred to elsewhere in the New Testament by the term "theos" without the definite article. Examples: Matt 1:23 23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us." NKJV Matt 15:4 4 For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' NKJV Mark 2:7 7 Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" NKJV Luke 20:38 38 "For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him." NKJV There are many more examples throughout the New Testament which could be given. The problems with this mis-translated such as in this story of the reverend are numerous. |
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Thank you for clarifying. Could you also shed some light on this
John 1:1. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." These are not the words of Jesus. They are the words of John (or whoever wrote them). Acknowledged by every erudite Christian scholar of the Bible as being the words of another Jew, Philo of Alexandria, who had written them even before John and Jesus were born and Philo claimed no divine inspiration for them. No matter what mystical meaning that Philo had woven around these words (which our John has plagiarised) we will accept them for what they are worth |
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Originally Posted by Dare81
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I would be more than happy to quote the scholars.To find them credible is for you to decide. |
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Originally Posted by Dare81
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First you say you know nothing about the man, then you belittle him.Nice.I guess in all religions you have to belittle the critics for the religion to survive.
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Originally Posted by Dare81
So what is important from my point of view is not whether you can get quotes from a number of anti-Christian "scholars" to agree with what you want to believe, but whether they is any factual basis for the claims. |
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In the "original" Greek manuscripts (Did the disciple John speak Greek?), "The Word" is only described as being "ton theos"(divine/a god) and not as being "ho theos" (The Divine/The God). A more faithful and correct translation of this verse would thus read: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was divine" (If you read the New World Translation of the Bible you will find exactly this wording). Similarly, in "The New Testament, An American Translation" this verse is honestly presented as "In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine." The New Testament, An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173 And again in the dictionary of the Bible, under the heading of "God" we read "Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated 'the word was with the God [=the Father], and the word was a divine being.'" The Dictionary of the Bible by John McKenzie, Collier Books, p. 317 In yet another Bible we read: "The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine" The Holy Bible, Containing the Old and New Testaments, by Dr. James Moffatt Please also see "The Authentic New Testament" by Hugh J. Schonfield and many others. If we look at a different verse, 2 Corinthians 4:4, we find the exact same word (ho theos) that was used in John 1:1 to describe God Almighty is now used to describe the devil, however, now the system of translation has been changed: "the god of this world (the Devil) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not." According to the system of the previous verse and the English language, the translation of the description of the Devil should also have been written as "The God" with a capital "G." If Paul was inspired to use the exact same words to describe the Devil, then why should we change it? Why is "The God" translated as simply "the god" when referring to the devil, while "divine" is translated as the almighty " is translated as the almighty " when referring to " when referring to "? Are we now starting to get a glimpse of how the "translation"? Are we now starting to get a glimpse of how the "the word was God," of the Bible took place? Well, what is the difference between saying "the word was a god (divine)" and between saying "I have said, Ye (the Jews) are gods; and all of you are children of the most High"? Are they not the same? Far from it! Let us read the bible: "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made you a god to Pharaoh" Psalms 82:6: "the god of this world (the Devil) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not." |
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Originally Posted by Dare81
Similarly, in "The New Testament, An American Translation" this verse is honestly presented as
"In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine." The New Testament, An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173
And again in the dictionary of the Bible, under the heading of "God" we read
"Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated 'the word was with the God [=the Father], and the word was a divine being.'" The Dictionary of the Bible by John McKenzie, Collier Books, p. 317 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the words of Jesus and in much of the rest of the NT the God of Israel (Gk. Ho theos) is the Father* of Jesus Christ. It is for this reason that the title ho theos, which now designates the Father as a personal reality, is not applied in the NT to Jesus Himself; Jesus is the Son of God (of ho theos). This is a matter of usage and not of rule, and the noun [Gk. Ho theos] is applied to Jesus a few times. "Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated "the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being." Thomas invokes Jesus with the titles which belong to the *Father, "My Lord and my God" (Jn 20:28). "The glory of our great God and Savior" which is to appear can be the glory of no other than Jesus (Tt 2:13)" (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, God, p317) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for translation of "theos", I dealt with that earlier. I do not plan to go through an on-going list of quotes (or as shown above, some mis-quotes) from people, some of whom do not know how to translate Koine Greek. BTW, if you are going to copy and paste from another source, the right thing to do is to acknowledge the source and to abide by the copyright requirements and laws. |
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Originally Posted by Dare81
Being a student does not remove the obligation to adhere to copyright and to be clear about what is and is not your work. |
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Originally Posted by Dare81
--------------------------------------------- Conclusion There is no evidence that the NWT Translation Committee possessed the training or skills necessary to produce an English Bible from the original languages. Frederick Franz’s refusal under oath to render Genesis 2:4 from English into Hebrew is suspicious, given that there is no reason a Hebrew scholar qualified to sit on a modern English Bible translation committee would be unable to do so. Ron Rhodes and other writers who have used the Franz cross-examination as evidence that Franz lacked proficiency in Hebrew have done so legitimately. It is Mr. Stafford’s appeal to William LaSor that proves to be – in Mr. Stafford’s own words – “superficial, inaccurate, and misleading.” ----------------------------------------------- You may want to read the full article. |
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In 2003 Jason David BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University in the United States, published a 200-page study of nine of “the Bibles most widely in use in the English-speaking world”. His study examined several passages of Scripture that are controversial, where “bias is most likely to interfere with translation”. For each passage, he compared the Greek text with the renderings of each English translation, and he looked for biased attempts to change the meaning. BeDuhn states that the general public and many Bible scholars assume that the differences in the New World Translation (NW) are due to religious bias on the part of its translators. However, he states: “Most of the differences are due to the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation.” While BeDuhn disagrees with certain renderings of the New World Translation, he says that this version “emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared,” calling it a “remarkably good” translation.[24] Edgar J. Goodspeed, translator of the Greek “New Testament” in An American Translation, wrote in a letter dated December 8, 1950: “I am interested in the mission work of your people, and its world wide scope, and much pleased with the free, frank and vigorous translation. It exhibits a vast array of sound serious learning, as I can testify.” Greek scholar Dr. Rijkel ten Kate notes in reference to the NWT that in rendering different Greek words (bre′phos, pai‧di′on, and pais) employed to describe the successive stages of Jesus' growth “that there is actually one Dutch Bible in which the different use of the three Greek words bre′phos, pai‧di′on, and pais is rightly taken into account,” after having previously reviewed other Dutch translations and concluded that “not one Dutch translation has rendered this adequately, that is to say, completely in harmony with the original text.”[25] Professor Benjamin Kedar[1], a Hebrew scholar in Israel, said in 1989: “In my linguistic research in connection with the Hebrew Bible and translations, I often refer to the English edition of what is known as the New World Translation. In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly confirmed that this work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible.” Bruce Metzger cites NWT renderings as instances of translating to support doctrine. He references the NWT's comma placement at Luke 23:43 as “In the interest of supporting the doctrine of "soul sleep" held by Jehovah's Witnesses.”[26] Another example Metzger offers is the insertion of the word “other” four times in Colossians chapter 1 “thus making Paul say that Jesus Christ is one among 'other' created things.” Of this insertion, Metzger states it is “In the interest of providing support of [Jehovah's Witnesses'] Unitarianism” and that the insertion is “totally without warrant from the Greek”.[27] Dr. Jason BeDuhn disagrees on this point by stating “'Other' is implied by 'all,' and the NW simply makes what is implicit explicit.”[28] Dr. Bruce Metzger characterizes the NWT's use of “Jehovah” in the New Testament as an “introduction.” He writes, “The introduction of the word 'Jehovah' into the New Testament text, in spite of much ingenuity in an argument filled with a considerable amount of irrelevant material (pp. 10-25), is a plain piece of special pleading.”[29] Reachout Trust writer Tony Piper concludes it is not a "faithful translation of the Scriptures…", giving as examples Acts 2:42, 46 and 20:7, 11 and he objects that “the NWT translates it to read that the church simply shared meals together” rather than using the phrase “breaking of bread [... ] to disguise the fact that the early church celebrated the Lord's Supper more than once a year.” [30] Charles Francis Potter has stated about the NWT: "Apart from a few semantic peculiarities like translating the Greek word stauros, as "stake" instead of "cross," and the often startling use of the colloquial and the vernacular, the anonymous translators have certainly rendered the best manuscript texts, both Greek and Hebrew, with scholarly ability and acumen."[31] Regarding the NWT's use of English, Dr. Harold H. Rowley is critical of what he calls “wooden literalism” and “harsh construction.” He characterizes these as “an insult to the Word of God” and offers a few sample renderings from Genesis. Specifically he cites Genesis 15:5, 4:13, 6:3, 18:20, 4:8, 19:22, 24:32 and 24:66. Rowley concludes these criticisms by writing, “From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated.”[32] Hebrew and Greek scholar Alexander Thomson wrote: “The translation is evidently the work of skilled and clever scholars, who have sought to bring out as much of the true sense of the Greek text as the English language is capable of expressing.. . We heartily recommend the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, published in 1950 by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society.”[33] Thomas Winter considers the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures (part of the NWT project) as “highly useful” toward mastery of biblical Greek.[34] Winter relates that the translation "is thoroughly up-to-date and consistently accurate.”[35] Wikepedia |
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