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excon · Oct 30, 2018, 06:07 AM

Hello:

My question is mostly for tom, cause he knows a whole lot more about this crap than I do..

So, what went WRONG in the world? Seems like we were headed in one direction and then, rip zap, we turned HARD RIGHT. Who did it? How can we fix it? SHOULD we fix it, or do you kinda like it?

excon

talaniman · Oct 30, 2018, 08:18 AM

Hi Ex

If we can't dump the dufus, we have to put the loonis back in the box. Will know more after silly season.

paraclete · Oct 30, 2018, 02:48 PM

Hi Ex, if there is one thing that sent the world right it was unwanted immigration, people will put up with a lot but invasion just isn't one of those things. Doesn't matter how you swing it none of us want to be responsible for the world's ills

talaniman · Oct 30, 2018, 04:01 PM

You're on to something Clete, and I respectfully submit that the right has gotten great at painting other people as unwanted because they are bad people that want to take your stuff. I get the fear of them taking over the country and overwhelming the "natives" and changing the FLAVOR of the country. Exploiting that fear for political gain is the game the right has exploited very well.

jlisenbe · Nov 7, 2018, 07:41 AM

Hi Ex, if there is one thing that sent the world right it was unwanted immigration, people will put up with a lot but invasion just isn't one of those things. Doesn't matter how you swing it none of us want to be responsible for the world's ills.

I don't think that's all there is to it, but you have made a really good point. Perhaps it is not so much the immigration itself as it is the lawless aspect of it, of having a federal government that just ignores the law.

tomder55 · Nov 7, 2018, 10:25 AM

Trump lit nothing . He just took advantage of it . Brexit started before his candidacy . Nations are becoming tired of the terms the " international order " imposes on them . The globalist assumed that people over time would abandon culture ,nation ,borders ,identity ,and most important ,self rule . They were wrong . Do you have a say over who represents you at the UN ? No they are appointed . Do you have a say in the rules they impose ? No . Not one person in Europe votes for the ministers of the EU and yet they have to live under every administrative decision Brussels makes . Unaccountable multilateral bureaucracies make decisions that impact everyone in the world and we don't even know the names of the people making the call.
This is not a move to the right . The WTO anarchist protesters are hardly right wingers . Bernie Sanders and Trump's position on trade is virtually identical . This is self determination vs submitting to an international "order " that imposes dictatorial rules on nations . We have it easier in the US because we are the top dog. What happens to other nations when the IMF imposes rules on how they conduct their economy ? Is that liberty ?

jlisenbe · Nov 7, 2018, 10:33 AM

What happens to other nations when the IMF imposes rules on how they conduct their economy ? Is that liberty ?

Liberty. That great, forgotten word.

excon · Nov 7, 2018, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

Unaccountable multilateral bureaucracies make decisions that impact everyone in the world and we don't even know the names of the people making the call.
This is not a move to the right .

Is that liberty ?

Hello gain, tom:

I'm not sure what you're talking about.. I'm talking about the new right wing regime in Brazil, the older ones in the Philippines, Turkey, Pakistan, and the ever present Saudi's.. I'm sure there's more that I don't To me, their rise to power DOES signify a rightward shift..

No?

excon

Wondergirl · Nov 7, 2018, 11:34 AM

Hello excon:

Would the world become a nicer place if there was only one huge right-leaning country (all citizens are right thinkers) and only one huge left-leaning country (all citizens are left thinkers) and a third huge country whose citizens are neither?

Curious Carol

paraclete · Nov 7, 2018, 01:45 PM

You pretty much have that already just a few national boundries thrown in

tomder55 · Nov 7, 2018, 02:33 PM

Ex why are you projecting the actions of tyrants onto the "right leaning " Jail Bolsonaro ? There is zero evidence that he will govern as a jackboot dictator . All the other nations you name are and have been governed by thugs for years including the Philippines who previously had Marcos ,the Aquino oligarchy before

Duterte

. As you know I have not accepted the conventional wisdom political right-left spectrum . In my view the extremes of the true spectrum is Tyranny - Liberty or statism or the real extreme globalism on one side and individualism on the other .The left right spectrum is only good for the smear and labelling .
To me the real change is happening is a rejection of the globalist agenda. It is why Merkel is on her way out in Germany .It is why Europeans are beginning to rediscover national identity .

paraclete · Nov 7, 2018, 03:21 PM

It is why Europeans are beginning to rediscover national identity

.

You could hope, but much of it is a reaction to a dill like Merkel who opened her borders and invited criminals and rapists in. At least you leader is that kind of dill

talaniman · Nov 7, 2018, 03:26 PM

This national identity thing is fueled by fear and hate Tom, and not pride and accomplishment. That's what makes it really dangerous as a tool of exploitation by haters. What you thought it is only terrorists and dictators who take advantage of desperate people in desperate times? We both know that national identity is but the code word for racial purity and segregation which only serves to keep the tribal mentality alive and well and growing among the human race.

jlisenbe · Nov 7, 2018, 04:58 PM

We both know that national identity is but the code word for racial purity and segregation

It apparently is to you, but not to many of us. To me it is a symbol of commonly held core beliefs. I don't care what a person's skin color is. I do care if they cherish the principles of the Constitution.

Wondergirl · Nov 7, 2018, 05:30 PM

commonly held core beliefs

We can't share and incorporate or at least respect each other's different beliefs, cultures, languages?

tomder55 · Nov 7, 2018, 06:51 PM

This national identity thing is fueled by fear and hate Tom, and not pride and accomplishment. That's what makes it really dangerous as a tool of exploitation by haters. What you thought it is only terrorists and dictators who take advantage of desperate people in desperate times? We both know that national identity is but the code word for racial purity and segregation which only serves to keep the tribal mentality alive and well and growing among the human race.

except that one of America's great national identities is the melting pot creating one common culture . Our national identity comes from a common belief that our rights are not granted to us by government but are self evident rights of humans .

"The people are the very substance, the living and free substance, of the body politic. The people are above the State, the people are not for the State, the State is for the people."(

Jacques Maritain )

Frankly I am tired of having to defend myself from charges that my beliefs are dog whistles and code for racism ;racial purity and xenophobic .They are nothing of the kind. People from all over the world come to this country to share in the ideals of what it means to be American .Take away our culture and identity and we cease being American.

jlisenbe · Nov 7, 2018, 07:08 PM

We can't share and incorporate or at least respect each other's different beliefs, cultures, languages?

Depends on what those beliefs and cultures are. Many people in the United States believe that racism is just fine. Do you respect that? Others believe that stealing is fine as long as you don't get caught. Is that one worthy of respect?

I understand what you're saying. I actually am a proponent of tolerance, but there must be a core group of beliefs around which we rally. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..." Might point out that you can't get to "equal" without first going through "created".

Wondergirl · Nov 7, 2018, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Depends on what those beliefs and cultures are. Many people in the United States believe that racism is just fine. Do you respect that? Others believe that stealing is fine as long as you don't get caught. Is that one worthy of respect?

I may disagree with someone but will do so RESPECTFULLY.

I understand what you're saying. I actually am a proponent of tolerance, but there must be a core group of beliefs around which we rally. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..." Might point out that you can't get to "equal" without first going through "created".

Please explain.

jlisenbe · Nov 7, 2018, 07:24 PM

In that passage of the Declaration, Jefferson expresses that the basis of equality is the fact that we are all created by God. Thus he said, "all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator..." If we are not created by God, then there is no basis at all for any equality. We would be no more equal than crickets are equal to dogs.

Wondergirl · Nov 7, 2018, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

In that passage of the Declaration, Jefferson expresses that the basis of equality is the fact that we are all created by God. Thus he said, "all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator..." If we are not created by God, then there is no basis at all for any equality. We would be no more equal than crickets are equal to dogs.

Jefferson didn't say "created by God"; he simply said "created...by their Creator" (leaving a huge opening there as to the definition of "Creator"). Stephen Hawking was undoubtedly pleased that Jefferson left God out of that process and kept it generic. And your last sentence makes no sense.