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Home > Forum Community > Member Discussions > Current Events   »   Top UK Bishop: Sharia Law Is Unavoidable

 
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Old Feb 8, 2008, 01:12 PM
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Top UK Bishop: Sharia Law Is Unavoidable

First the UK, then???

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Thursday, 7 February 2008

The Archbishop of Canterbury says the adoption of certain aspects of Sharia law in the UK “seems unavoidable”.

Dr Rowan Williams told Radio 4’s World at One that the UK has to “face up to the fact” that some of its citizens do not relate to the British legal system.

Dr Williams argues that adopting parts of Islamic Sharia law would help maintain social cohesion.

For example, Muslims could choose to have marital disputes or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia court.

He says Muslims should not have to choose between “the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty”.

In an exclusive interview with BBC correspondent Christopher Landau, ahead of a lecture to lawyers in London later on Monday, Dr Williams argues this relies on Sharia law being better understood. At the moment, he says “sensational reporting of opinion polls” clouds the issue.

He stresses that “nobody in their right mind would want to see in this country the kind of inhumanity that’s sometimes been associated with the practice of the law in some Islamic states; the extreme punishments, the attitudes to women as well”.

But Dr Williams said an approach to law which simply said “there’s one law for everybody and that’s all there is to be said, and anything else that commands your loyalty or allegiance is completely irrelevant in the processes of the courts - I think that’s a bit of a danger”.

“There’s a place for finding what would be a constructive accommodation with some aspects of Muslim law, as we already do with some other aspects of religious law.” …
Anybody for a little Sharia law?

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Old Feb 8, 2008, 02:02 PM   #2  
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okay, so, first UK then Canada and then........
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Old Feb 8, 2008, 02:15 PM   #3  
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No way, it wont ever happen........ Its all just alot of talk, Im pretty sure the numbers of British voting BNP will rise due to his speech tho. He had started one hell of a backlash and everyone is sayin he will prob have to resign!!
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Old Feb 8, 2008, 02:35 PM   #4  
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La-xx, you are probably correct. I couldnt believe he actually said that. I read this in the Toronto Star this morning, and there will probably be more in the saturday paper about this.
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Old Feb 8, 2008, 02:38 PM   #5  
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When you have the time it is worthwhile to read Maj. Stephen Couglin's thesis on Jihad and Sharia law .

"To our Great Detriment":Ignoring What Extremist say about Jihad

http://www.strategycenter.net/docLib...emistJihad.pdf



Quote:
"it is the conclusion of this thesis that Islamic law forms the doctrinal basis for the jihadi threat that can only be understood through an unconstrained review of the Islamic law of jihad."


Coughlin theme is that Islam includes a body of law that binds all faithful Muslims to a program of conquest and to resist all attempts to roll it back. He establishes that this obligation is rooted in mainstream, not variant Islam. He argues that current US doctrine refuses to incorporate this fact, preferring to assume that Islam itself is neutral in the War on Terror when this assumption cannot be supported by any reasonable reading of the texts.

Coughlin had been dismissed from his position on the Joint Chief of Staff as a specialist on Islamic law. But has been reinstated .

Dr.Williams assumptions are false. Everyone in Britain can strive to change the law to accomodate their beliefs under the premise that British law is the supreme law of the land. Sharing the law would be a big break in tradition and would be the ruin of British society .

Williams is an ignorant dhimmi .There is nothing "unavoidable" about Sharia law . All it takes is for people to not succumb to it.




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Old Feb 9, 2008, 02:30 AM   #6  
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The really scary thing about Rowan Williams is not that he is the exception but actually represents the mindset of many . How much better informed are the supporters of certain US Presidential candidates than Rowan Williams?


Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: What he wishes on us is an abomination

'Sharia is nothing but a human concoction of medieval religious opinion
Saturday, 9 February 2008




What Rowan Williams wishes upon us is an abomination and I write here as a modern Muslim woman. He lectures the nation on the benefits of sharia law – made by bearded men, for men – and wants the alternative legal system to be accommodated within our democracy in the spirit of inclusion and cohesion.

Pray tell me sir, how do separate and impenetrable courts and schools and extreme female segregation promote commonalities and deep bonds between citizens of these small isles?
What he did on Thursday was to convince other Britons, white, black and brown, that Muslims want not equality but exceptionalism and their own domains. Enlightened British Muslims quail. Friends like this churchman do us more harm than our many enemies. He passes round what he believes to be the benign libation of tolerance. It is laced with arsenic.
He would not want his own girls and women, I am sure, to "choose" to be governed by these laws he breezily endorses. And he is naive to the point of folly if he imagines it is possible to pick and choose the bits that are relatively nice to the girls or ones that seem to dictate honourable financial transactions.
Look around the Islamic world where sharia rules and, in every single country, these ordinances reduce our human value to less than half that is accorded a male; homosexuals are imprisoned or killed, children have no free voice or autonomy, authoritarianism rules and infantilises populations.
What's more, different Muslim nations claim to have their own allegedly god-given sharia. In Saudi Arabia, women cannot drive (What in Allah's name could the Koran have warned about cars?). In Bangladesh and Pakistan, they have no such bar to driving, although increasingly Saudi Wahabi Islam is taking over and we see Saudi sharia taking hold.
It is growing in influence here, too. Ten years ago, the only fully shrouded Muslim women around were from the Arab fiefdoms, the many wives of sheikhs often drawn by cartoonists to convey the absurdity and inhumanity of such cloaks. Now all of Europe has these girls and women rendering themselves invisible in public spaces. It is their elected sharia, so they claim without credibility. There is no agreed body of sharia, it is all drafted by males and the most cruel is now claiming absolute authority.
In Pakistan, on the statutes are strictures on adultery introduced by the military dictator Zia ul-Haq. Women activists in that country have given their lives protesting against the injustice of those laws where women suspected of adultery, or rape victims, are punished in hideous ways and the man goes free.
The Iranian theocracy changes its regulations from year to year, capriciously playing with the lives of females. The morality police hound women and girls, beat them up, imprison them for showing an ankle, walking too provocatively or singing in the streets. They fight back but are ground down eventually.
Two Iranian friends chose to die rather than live under the demeaning religious orders. Go to Afghanistan if you fancy a 12-year-old bride – a practice approved by the mullahs. That's sharia for you. Many women, gay men and dissidents came to Britain to escape Islamic tyrants and their laws. Dr Williams supports those laws and, by default, makes the refugees victims again.
Four years ago, a Saudi woman in her fifties came to my home. She was divorced from a Saudi prince who had sent her away and kept her children. What she said about sharia cannot be repeated. She had money, this princess, but no parental rights and she howled like a child in excruciating pain in my living room.
Yet, family disputes, says Dr Williams, would be easier, within sharia. For whom exactly? The polygamous men who live in this country, yes, certainly. Not for their wives who will be told that God intends them to lower their eyes and accept unjust verdicts.
Many will be sent back to bastard husbands or flinty-eyed mullahs will take their children away. In Bradford and Halifax, they may be forbidden to drive or work where men are employed. Adultery will be punished. I don't think we will have public stonings but violence of some sort will be meted out (it already is) with lawmakers' backing.
Sensing the drift in their direction, British sharia "experts" today shamelessly direct female medical students not to wash their forearms, essential to prevent the spread of infections, because that exposes their flesh.
Does the Archbishop even know that sharia comes in many guises and that several schools of jurisprudence have their own versions? The list is long – Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi, Hanbali, Jafari, Salafi and on and on. Ayatollah Khomeini preferred his DIY set of crimes and punishments when he came to power.
No women are allowed to be imams or serious jurists, so cannot help make their own fair and free set of female-friendly sharia. All the systems insist on ultimate truths, hard certainties. Sharia cannot provide solutions to the complex challenges of modern life and many violate fundamental human rights as established by the United Nations.
Taj Hargey, a historian and Islamic theologian, runs the Muslim Education Centre in Oxford. He, with me, is a trustee of British Muslims For Secular Democracy which is attempting to educate Muslims out of authorised obscurantism and non-Muslims into a better understanding of the progressive and evolutionary nature of the practice of Islam.
He is incandescent that Dr Williams backs a perilous Islamic conservatism, already too powerful in Britain: "Sharia is nothing but a human concoction of medieval religious opinion, largely archaic and outmoded and irrelevant to life today. Most sharia contradicts the letter and spirit of the Koran, distorts the transcendental text."
During his sermons Dr Hargey explains to congregations that, for example there is no blasphemy in the Koran, that the Prophet himself allowed a man to mock the divine revelations. Apostasy, says the holy text, will be dealt with by Allah in the afterlife. Sharia policemen insist apostates should be tortured and killed.
Dr Williams says Muslims want the choice to opt for sharia. What he believes to be choice is, in truth, inner compulsion, the result of brainwashing which begins in the madrassas when girls and boys are young enough to mould.
I have often admired the Archbishop's lofty thoughts, his intellectualism, the passion for human rights, his guts when the Government needs to be chastised. But this time his kind indulgences betray his own invaluable principles and deliver Muslim women, girls and dissidents into the hands of religious persecutors – an unforgivable intervention, which I hope he now sincerely regrets.
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: What he wishes on us is an abomination - Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Commentators - Independent.co.uk
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Old Feb 9, 2008, 08:59 AM   #7  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Williams is an ignorant dhimmi .There is nothing "unavoidable" about Sharia law . All it takes is for people to not succumb to it.
I will continue to just say no.
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Old Feb 9, 2008, 09:26 AM   #8  
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Originally Posted by tomder55
The really scary thing about Rowan Williams is not that he is the exception but actually represents the mindset of many .
You got that right. Like your comment on bipartisanship it's the Islamic version of compromise - it means drifting toward Islam. We're already seeing the efforts here (though people will deny or make light of it) in wash basins in public colleges, the Muslim taxi drivers in Minneapolis, the Florida woman who wanted her DL photo taken with a veil on and the Imams at the airport and such. Did you realize three of those 4 occurred in Minnesota?

When I was thinking about it this morning I figured the basis for establishing Sharia in the US would be Native American courts and guess what I found from Jihad Watch?

Quote:
Starting with personal arbitration courts -- similar to the attempt made awhile ago in Canada. "Native American Courts: Precedent for an Islamic arbitral system" by Issa Smith was originally published in 1993, but was reprinted several weeks ago at The American Muslim (thanks to all who sent this in):
The process of implementing Muslim family law will not be accomplished overnight. Changes of their type take place very slowly in American society, and our community is far from being prepared for this tak. I commend the continental council of Masajid for organizing this conference, and bringing together so many workers and thinkers. I pray to Allah the real decisions are made here that can be implemented by those ready to work. However, I strongly urge that consideration be given to political realities and the sensitivities of the American public. Such a radical change in American law—allowing Muslims to take control over their family law issues - must be initiated from the indigenous Muslim community here in the United States. To have it seem that this initiative is originating from overseas or from organizations financed overseas, would create a very negative impression that would likely destroy this effort
.
All I can say people is appease at your peril.

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How much better informed are the supporters of certain US Presidential candidates than Rowan Williams?
Darn good question, I'd like to know that myself.
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Old Feb 9, 2008, 09:31 AM   #9  
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The backlash within the UK establishment has already started:

The Press Association: Williams stays silent in Muslim row
BBC NEWS | UK | Archbishop defends Sharia remarks

more here: williams sharia - Google News
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Old Feb 10, 2008, 11:05 AM   #10  
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Tom, I tend to agree generally but that has changed in Iraq. Read what a Surgeon in combat has to say:


“Percival expected the enemy to be driven by religion and politics. He didn't see that. Instead, he saw young men with cell phones, gang tattoos and crisp $100 bills that he was told came as payment for planting bombs or sniping soldiers. They shot Americans and Iraqis. They shot women and children.

"These people will do anything. There's no atrocity they won't do," he said, concluding the war, at least in Mosul, was being driven not by fundamentalist Islam but by money. "I met people who appeared to be part of an organized crime cartel, were paid for what they did and there were no lines they wouldn't cross."

It's a point he hammered repeatedly in his e-mails.

"I suspect Iraq has run out of post-Saddam supporters and religious zealots. They are visiting Allah. No society has an endless supply of people like that anyway, political pundits notwithstanding. I see IEDs (improvised explosive devices) but no suicide bombers. My headline would read: US Army fighting Syrian funded Mafia-like organization in Mosul.' If something makes no sense follow the money. Many claim they need the money to support their families, as if killing and mutilating is an OK way to pay your bills."”

Camarillo doctor's emails describe fight for lives in Iraq : Local News : Ventura County Star
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