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    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #241

    Mar 12, 2014, 06:07 AM
    heard it all before Unions are not all powerful, they get in the way of progress, but they are an excuse, not a reason.

    Don't know what it is like there. but where I come from the standard to get into a teaching course at university is the lowest of all professions and yet dispite this our kids get a reasonable education, I'm just not sure their knowledge outside of the basics is relevant to the real world. Maybe your teachers are just educated idiots turned out by a system that is education for money based. teachers can only teach what they know, right?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #242

    Mar 12, 2014, 06:12 AM
    Education without opportunity is useless. 4/5/6 applicants for every job means many without opportunity.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #243

    Mar 12, 2014, 06:21 AM
    I though education was supposed to create opportunity by teaching people to think, what you are talking about is having a path laid out, noone is entitled to that
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #244

    Mar 12, 2014, 06:31 AM
    without education...limited opportunity . So I ask again... You have a program where the students who are selected are acheiving at a higher level than they would in the public system. Why would any caring compassionate person who is looking out for these students best interest close the schools down and return these students to the failed system ?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #245

    Mar 12, 2014, 06:48 AM
    What if you cared about all the kids not just a few, and it was a few in a particular school who were getting better help than the special needs students who needed more? I mean who advocates for the many? I am sure you have heard De Blasio say he wants more resources for all his kids to address the needs of those lottery losers.

    The particular charter school in question doesn't want to pay the rent, but wants to expand in the current location, at the expense of the special need children already there that cannot be served. I mean this corporation of 22 state wide schools can run adds in her favor, but can't pay rent.

    What's wrong with this picture?
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #246

    Mar 12, 2014, 10:09 AM
    What if you cared about all the kids not just a few
    So you screw the few ? Where is the sense in that ?
    I am sure you have heard De Blasio say he wants more resources for all his kids to address the needs of those lottery losers.
    The resources he has is all he has right now . Again how does he or the general student body benefit by him closing them ? Answer ;they don't .

    You are living in the past . The future of education is not in a 20th century central planning structure . The future is in private /public cooperation . Let the politicians provide the structures ;that's fine . It's a good investment of taxpayer's money . But it is already a fact that the current government managed systems are a failure . Time for you progressives to move on ...to progress . Look to New Orleans if you want to see where the future of education is . Children are graduating there at a higher rate than the rest of the state.
    Before Katrina, New Orleans public schools were plagued by corruption, financial mismanagement, FBI probes, and poor academic performance. They were consistently among the worst schools in the state. For example, in 2005 Orleans Parish ranked 67 out of 68 Louisiana parishes for student achievement. 70% and 74% of 8th graders weren't proficient in Math or English, respectively. Furthermore, 77% of students were attending failing schools. This year New Orleans RSD schools were first in student growth, increasing 6 percentage points in the number of students meeting the state proficiency goal. From 2000 to 2013 New Orleans schools have closed the student performance gap from 26 percentage points to just 6 percentage points. Additionally, since the charter school revolution in New Orleans the number of students attending failing schools has fallen to 32% and ACT scores are improving faster than state and national scores. Lastly, the percentage of students who entered 9th grade together and graduated in 4 years, known as the cohort graduation rate, has increased from 57% in 2008 to 78% in 2012.
    What has accounted for the success of charter schools? According to Veronica Brooks, Policy Director of the Louisiana Association of Public Charter Schools,“There is nothing magical about being a charter school. What is important are the innovations charters are focusing on.” One of the most important innovations is site-based autonomy. Mickey Landry, Executive Director of the Choice Foundation in New Orleans, says site-based autonomy is simply the ability to manage school operations on-site. For Brooks, site-based autonomy is “all about letting schools be autonomous yet accountable. It is less about input and more about outcome.” Specifically, it allows for control of the budget, meaning more freedom to make decisions about the allocation of resources. Additionally, site-based autonomy gives individual schools greater authority over the hiring and firing of teachers. With greater control of the budget, charter schools are able to apply resources to their most critical needs. For example, if the most critical need is infrastructure, a greater portion of the budget can go towards infrastructure. This contrasts greatly with traditional public school districts where schools are told what to do from a central office. Often, a central office may develop a Professional Development Plan containing initiatives like “Curb School Violence” and apply it to all schools, overlooking the diversity and differing needs among schools. It is a one-size-fits-all approach and often fails to address the unique needs of individual schools.
    Freedom Drives Success in New Orleans Charter School Revolution | The Pelican Post
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #247

    Mar 12, 2014, 10:50 AM
    The particular charter school in question doesn't want to pay the rent, but wants to expand in the current location, at the expense of the special need children already there that cannot be served. I mean this corporation of 22 state wide schools can run adds in her favor, but can't pay rent.

    What's wrong with this picture?
    The children are still being educated in the NYC public education system . They are not private schools . Why should they pay rent ?

    BTW ;we are not talking about a particular charter school ....Sandanista Bob wants to shut them all down .Why ? To kow-tow and suck up to the teacher's unions ? Or is it racism ?
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #248

    Mar 12, 2014, 11:07 AM
    "We're seeing the tail end of the unions' argument over whether the largest occupation in the U.S. should be the only occupation where no one gets promoted or paid based on how good a job they do." (Steve Brill ;author of 'Class Warfare: Inside the Fight to Fix America's Schools')
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #249

    Mar 12, 2014, 11:56 AM
    You had to quote one of my favorite firebrand authors. Reread the ending. Also fact check your own rhetoric.
    DoulaLC's Avatar
    DoulaLC Posts: 10,488, Reputation: 1952
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    #250

    Mar 12, 2014, 06:43 PM
    Paraclete... most teachers are not under resourced, and effective teachers can teach even without the latest technology or textbooks when they have students who know how to behave and parental support for education. Education will be lost when you have consistently disruptive students... there is no way around it.

    Don't buy into the need for the latest and greatest in methods or programs. Teachers who have been teaching for a good period will find that the programs are often not far off something they have seen before. You'll have new catch phrases and buzzwords, but the basics are still the basics. I call it "old wine, new bottle". Schools will often jump on the bandwagon when other districts go in a certain direction, only to change the program yet again within a few years when something new becomes popular.

    Smoothy... I'm not sure where you have seen 8 year olds being taught how to use condoms. It certainly would not be the norm. Growth and development often comes in fifth grade. I personally do not hear teachers whining to make more money. Would it be nice... sure, it would be for anyone. But I know of no teachers who have money as a major factor in their jobs. Quite the opposite... most teachers know going into the job that they won't make a tremendous amount, and that it takes years of teaching before they will even get to what is considered an average pay.

    You won't see a change until you see a change in families and society. The focus on scripted teaching and a multitude of testing will not result in better outcomes. It will certainly result in more children growing up to dislike school, with fewer social skills, and less ability for indepth thinking.

    Again, charter schools, and others like them, sometimes do better because their student population is more likely to come from families who value education and make it a priority. When parents care, students are more inclined to care as well. Add to this, the schools are also more likely to allow teachers to actually spend more time teaching.

    One student I had was on a waiting list for a fundamental school. Her mother, who was a frequent volunteer in the classroom, asked for my thoughts on moving her midyear when a spot opened up. I told her that as a parent, I would make the move. She would be following the same curriculum, have the same testing, have the same technology available to her... the difference would be that she would have fewer disruptions in the classroom and thus be able to learn more of what was taught.

    It won't matter what race someone is, how much teachers get paid, or the income of a student's family. When you have teachers who are given the freedom to do what they were trained to do, and more students with families who parent their children and provide educational support, then you will see rising outcomes across the board.
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #251

    Mar 12, 2014, 06:47 PM
    DoulaLC, that 8 year old thing with condoms.was Montgomery County MD, Schools... which are only about 20-30 miles from where I am in VA. It was a HUGE local issue just a couple years ago. And it's a really big school system.
    DoulaLC's Avatar
    DoulaLC Posts: 10,488, Reputation: 1952
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    #252

    Mar 12, 2014, 06:49 PM
    Schools Chancellor Carmen Farina: NYC Will Find Seats For Charter School Kids « CBS New York
    DoulaLC's Avatar
    DoulaLC Posts: 10,488, Reputation: 1952
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    #253

    Mar 12, 2014, 06:50 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    DoulaLC, that 8 year old thing with condoms.was Montgomery County MD, Schools... which are only about 20-30 miles from where I am in VA. It was a HUGE local issue just a couple years ago. And it's a really big school system.
    Sounds like a local issue... thankfully it was not widespread.
    DoulaLC's Avatar
    DoulaLC Posts: 10,488, Reputation: 1952
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    #254

    Mar 12, 2014, 07:01 PM
    smoothy... are you sure it wasn't 8th "grade"? I found the topic surprising so have been trying to find info on it and have only found information about their programs in 8th and 10th grade, which some found questionable.
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #255

    Mar 12, 2014, 07:33 PM
    These were kids younger than one would expect any sexual activity from even today. That's why there was the big stink. In the 8th grade it would not be a surprise to anyone. Not even when I was in the 8th grade in the early 70's.

    I'll do some digging around if I can remember... don't have much time left tonight. Picking the right words for the query is critical.

    It got killed before it ever took effect....but it was a big fight.

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