That's an understatement.

My apologies, I didn't mean to be deserving of "THAT rude and THAT demeaning," I merely pointed out what the outrage is about. I wasn't dissing you in asking "do you really not get it?" In fact I think you do get it but won't say so.

I know all about that but it's irrelevant to the point.

Oh really? I've fired a gun many, many, many times. I was taught how to fire a weapon when I was 7 or 8. By the third grade my dad would give me a .22 and a box of ammo and let me go out on my own at my grandmother's farm. I have never in 48 years killed anything with one of those shots I took, unless you count the TV we euthanized at a friend's private shooting range a few years ago.

Maybe you don't get it after all. If you can point out where I wanted to ban something in my responses I'll be glad to address that, but meanwhile let's talk about what I have said and what I'm about to say. I don't deny Planned Parenthood's right to offer these, but that doesn't diminish the offensiveness of promoting gift certificates that have the potential to be used for killing a child in honor of the season which is entirely about the birth of a child. There are a hell of a lot of things that may be legal and have good intentions but it doesn't make it the right thing to do. And IF Planned Parenthood were as concerned about health care for low income and other needy people as they claim to be, the thought of offering "gift certificates" would never enter the discussion, they would "just do it."

I guess YOU don't get the point.

The "reason" for the season is the rebirth of the sun. Christianity coopted the winter solstice hundreds of years ago, and took on pagan traditions (like gift-giving) to convert the pagans

The season is about giving. It's about tolerance. It's about love, and friendship and fellow-man.

It's NOT about judgments, or assumptions, or getting offended every single time someone does something that ISN'T Christian. There are SEVERAL other holidays this time of year, you know, and most of them have gift-giving involved.

I get that you don't want people getting abortions, or getting gift cards that could help them. I guess what YOU don't get is that it would be extremely surprising for someone to get an abortion with those gift cards, since any TRUE Christian wouldn't give someone who is expecting a gift card to Planned Parenthood, would they? They'd buy baby stuff instead. Or buy food, or whatever. Anyone who gets one of these cards to give is going to be giving it to someone they'd like to be HEALTHY. Anyone GETTING one of these cards is more likely to get birth control than an abortion, if you ask me.

Besides---I don't know, really, what you seem to know about abortion, but even a CHEAP abortion is usually over $500. I don't know anyone handing out $500.00 gift cards for ANYTHING this holiday season---and if they were, they'd be able to afford something nicer than Planned Parenthood, don't you think? Or do you think that 16 year old is going to ask everyone in her family for PP gift cards for Christmas, so that she can run out and get her abortion the day after? By contrast, $25 can get you several months of birth control pills from PP. Which do YOU think is more likely?

All this does is make me realize that some people assume that others will do the worst--and that most of the time those making the assumptions do so in the name of "good" and "God". Isn't this the time of year to expect the BEST of your fellow-man?

I get your point--I realize you're offended that some people make a choice about their own bodies that you don't agree with.

You don't get mine: If this is supposed to be the "season of Christianity", shouldn't Christian principles prevail? Shouldn't people expect the best of others, and foster goodwill and generosity? Shouldn't we forgive people, and try to live like Jesus would? How about spreading love instead of hate? How about spreading kindness instead of pettyness? How about thinking that people will do something GOOD with a gift, rather than assuming that they will do something bad? Why not practice tolerance of the beliefs of others instead of pushing your own at them?

Wonder how a gift certificate like this would be viewed?

"This entitles the bearer to one free office call with Dr. Jack Kevorkian"

I would view a Gift Certificate like that with a big THANK YOU. I think assisted suicide should be legal. Why do we make people suffer? If you are sick and want to die I think that should be a persons choice. I know if I was in a car accident and I was going to be a quadriplegic and was going to have to have someone clean me, machines breathe for me, and tubes feed me I would rather be dead.

We are always going to have heated debates over abortion - and rightfully so, there are many factors involved. However, I think that what is being overlooked here is the many, many other great services offered by Planned Parenthood. As one of the 140 million Americans that don't have health insurance, I would love a gift certificate to Planned Parenthood. Believe me, I am long over due for a healthcare visit!

Of course, how silly of us to miss that Planned Parenthood would be offering this "gift" in honor of the "rebirth of the sun" and not the birth of the Son. I'm sure that's exactly what they had in mind for all those millions of people out there shopping for just the right meaningful Saturnalia gift to be wrapped in all that Saturnalia paper and placed under the Saturnalia Tree.

But hey, I can be tolerant of people celebrating Saturnalia, or Kwanzaa or whatever, that's fine, but by far the majority of people in this country will be giving Christmas gifts for the Christmas holiday regardless of whether someone co-opted the celebration from pagans. You call it what you want and we'll call it what we want, but we couldn't really care less about any alleged pagan origins of Christmas - we know what we're celebrating.

These gift certificates in present form are a slap in the face to millions of Christians no matter what you plead. That doesn't change just because you say it should and why in God's name does everyone think we should not be offended because you say so anyway? And yes, I do get that the likelihood of using one for an abortion is probably slim, but just once couldn't they have used a little better judgment?

As for what I know about abortion, it robbed me of a grandchild, probably my only shot at ever having a grandchild. Planned Parenthood's "health care" also left my daughter fighting for her life with full-blown AIDS. I have plenty of standing in my contempt for Planned Parenthood so yeah, I certainly get it.

I would have no problem giving someone a gift certificate for health care, but not to Planned Parenthood. I would take my family to see Tor Eckman before I took them to PP.

YouTube Seinfeld - The Heart Attack

The beauty of Seinfeld - it can be applied to all of life's situation :)

I am sorry to hear about your daughter's illness, Speachless. I can empathize with your feelings. Maybe the real issue here is this:

Why aren't other health care facilities offering gift certificates? It's actually a great idea.

Then those Christians shouldn't buy them.

It works like that in a capitalistic society: if you all decide not to buy it because you don't agree with it on moral grounds, well, then the product won't be available in the future.

You have a personal vendetta against Planned Parenthood. It has NOTHING to do with the millions of people that PP has helped over the years.

You may know what you're celebrating, but you're really angry when anyone points out that you're not celebrating it the way the early Christians did, but in the way the pagans around them did. The original Christmases were days of fasting and praying---if you don't like the way pagans celebrate it, then go back to fasting and praying, imo.

And by the way---ya'll stole the "Christmas" tree from the pagans (yup, I've got one up, with icicle ornaments and pagan symbols and a clump of mistletoe on the top). You stole the gift giving thing from Saturnalia, when it was a time to give gifts to others. I actually DO have something like "Saturnalia" paper--it's stars and moons and suns in silver and gold and black and blue.

Want to jump all over the Jews that MIGHT give this gift certificate to PP in installments over 8 crazy nights? I mean, it could be $5 the first night, up to $300 the last night, and the full amount MIGHT add up to the cost of an abortion! Holy smokes! And they're not CHRISTIAN! They might KILL A BABY for Christm--oops, I mean Hannukah.

GET REAL. People don't just randomly make the decision to abort.

Planned Parenthood helps millions of people every year who cannot afford birth control, health care, family planning guidance (which, by the way, includes some fertility treatments), counseling on adoption and parenting options and STD testing--all of which SAVE lives.

And really--point out to me a SINGLE health care facility in this country that has NOT had a case of malpractice. Show me one hospital that hasn't had a death due to negligence or overtired/overworked doctors and nurses. Human beings make mistakes. It happens. I'm sorry that it happened to your daughter--truly I am. I will definitely pray for her.

That was not fair. How can you be so mean spirited?

I agree with you 100% that PP is a good organization. However, I'm sure I would feel the same way Speechless feels if I had an experience similar to hers. She is entitled to her feelings and viewpoint without a nasty attack about her relationship with her ill daughter. Do you actually know anything about their relationship?

You are correct.

I have deleted those horrible words and my follow up post.

My apologies to Speechlesstx. I was completely out of line, and should not have said what I did.

I wonder how many abortions PP has prevented due to its wide range of services? That seems to be conveniently ignored. You know I'm sorry for yours and your daughters situation Steve but getting angry over something as simple as this is seems misguided... But then again I suppose nothing is simple when it comes to religion and this issue in particular.

Good job Synnen. We can disagree and still respect each other.

It's good that you apologized before I read it, but for the record my daughter was an adult living near San Diego, CA with an abusive boyfriend about 1500 miles away. I bet you know what's that's like and why we were completely in the dark.

Come on Skell, not you, too. Why do so many people think everyone has a right to be offended except Christians? The thought of a Christmas-time gift certificate potentially being used for an abortion is close to being the ultimate offense to our faith, but you think it's misguided. We're supposed to be "sensitive" to everyone else, even the slightest perception of an offense is played as an outrage but a direct insult to us is "misguided." But for the record, I was never angry about it until folks started telling me not to be.

I'll grant this also, yes Planned Parenthood does some good, they do furnish health care that some might otherwise go without, they do help prevent abortions to a degree, and for Synnen's sake, no there are no perfect health care providers. My daughter isn't the only one close to me whose life was messed up with PP's help, and I know more than enough about PP's activities factually otherwise to more than justify my contempt for that organization. You guys thought I was joking about Kramer's holistic healer... I'm not. Planned Parenthood in my opinion is a vile, dishonest, incompetent blight on society.

Why didn't Planned Parenthood give gift certificates for vasectomies instead and nip the problem in the bud (pun intended). Now that would make much more sense - prevention not destruction.

I believe that Planned Parenthood DOES offer vasectomies.

You could certainly use the gift card towards one, I'm sure.

Synn you missed my point. Sorry.