Hello

Today ahead of a meeting in Copenhagen it was agred that the EU will fund the improvement of the newer states to help them bring into line their emissons

News Sniffer - Revisionista 'EU strikes climate funding deal' diff viewer (2/3)

The essence is the EU will offer some 100bn euros to fund the gap between what was the old eastern blocks of europe and the western

As I have read quite a few thoughts from America on the idea that paying tax to help health care and other social programs is seen by many as a bad thing, I would be intrigued to read what America thinks about taxes being paid to fund industrial improvements in a different country?

phlanx

Firstly, I think some people saw the movie over here, but I think more people are interested in watching nature programs by Sir David Attenborough

Al Gore for whatever he stands for is doing things the american way

Not only is he making money from the idea, but he is creating jobs in the process

Change costs money - any change costs money, however it comes about, somebody has to pay for it

Regardless of the Global Warming philosophy and that is all that it is, scientists have been able for the first time in mans history to start to work out the effects that man has on himself and his environment

And whether global warming is or is not, the simple truth is pollution is not and will never be good for anybody or anything on this planet

So regardless of hows why or wheres, if the governments around the world start to initiate programs of change then:

Why should we wait for industry to catch up - when the system can and does assist in the scheduling program

tomder55

I suppose you have not familiarized yourself with the fiasco that was created when our government decided that it was in our interests to support ethanol from corn production.

Not enough time for me to deal with it now ;but I have commented on it here often . Suffice it to say it made bubble markets , creates food shortages ,and to top it off ;it was unproven that there were any advantages in converting corn into ethanol for cleaner emissions or energy independence. It just satisfied another lobby that did not give a damn about the cause they were promoting .

phlanx

There is a genral rule of thumb in a capitalised society

There needed to be Betamax for VHS to win and take the industry standard

I have seen people trying all sorts from all over the world, and nobody has come up with a definite way yet of providing SAFE energy for all

Until there is an industry standard, people will try all sorts of things to find the answer

I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
Thomas A. Edison

tomder55

yes ;that's my point too. the market will sort itself out . we do not need the government deciding the winners and losers.

ETWolverine

Really?

The first cellular networks launched in the USA were in the mid 1980s. By the mid 90s, everyone had a cell phone. As soon as their use became easy, affordable and convenient, people started using them. it didn't take a generation to catch on... not even close.

What they DO and what they are ALLOWED to do are two different things. A third is what they SHOULD be allowed to do.

As soon as you mention allowing government to make decisions as to which businesses or industries it will help, you are granting them more power. As soon as you allow them to create incentives for certain businesses, you are granting them more power. As soon as you say that they should regulate businesses, you are granting them more power. This isn't reading between the lines... it is simply the end result of implementing your ideas.

And I am saying that it is NOT their job to do so, and giving them the power to do so is the same as giving them the power to choose which businesses they will help succeed and which they will push toward failure. You are, in effect, granting them the power to slew the playing field in whatever direction THEY think is the right way to go rather than letting the PEOPLE determine what they want through an open market.

Yes, I did notice. That's why I am trying to roll back their power.

Funny... Clete would (and has) argued otherwise.

But the fact is that we only have power over the government as long as we EXERCISE IT. Power ends as soon as we allow the government to dictate business and industry policy and allow them to get away with it. Power ends as soon as we give the government more power over us than we have over them and allow them to dictate to us what kinds of toilets we can use, what kind of lights we can use, and what kind of cars we can use. We only have power over government if we are willing to limit its power.

Perhaps you should make yourself more clear.

Yes I do. You ought to try it my way... then you'll have all the answers too.

Yes, industry does have power... but only as long as PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO BUY THEIR PRODUCTS. That is where people get their power in the free market... by choosing what they buy and from whom. That is as direct a form of control as has ever been created by man, and it gives us the final say on any product, business or industry. But if we allow government to have more influence over the market than WE do, we are giving up control of not only the government, but the economy as well.

I for one do not wish to give up that control.

You, apparently have no problem doing so.

Elliot

phlanx

A generation is classed at 20 years

You state 1984 start, and the us used them first in your market

Here it was more of late 90s before everyone had one

So Whether you class 10 years or 15 years as considerably shorter really makes no difference, SHOULD we really wait 10 -15 years for people to realise that using a 100w light bulb vs the 11w lightbulb is just plain stupid, but seen as their stupidty effects my right to freedom of choice, then why not ban the thing in what most poeple see as the correct choice to make

So instead of waiting 10 years plus, we can save a shed load of energy in months!

The problem with any document of words is that two people can read them two different ways - so you say they shouldnt be doing something, yet I dont here of impeachments or arrests?

How have you got from providing incentives to green engergy devolopment, which is a response to the peoples cries, which is democracy TO giving them more power? The leap is too much for me to understand?

I refer my right honourable gentlemen to the Miners Strike of the 80s in this country, here we had an industry that needed to be reformed

The workers oppossed it, even though it was no longer economically viable to be run.

It had to be reformed, we couldnt allow it to continue in its present form, so here you have the responsibility of the government making a decision that is of the benefit to the country

Incidently we are on the verge of going through the same mess with Royal Mail, but that is a different story

You cannot leave it upto the market to always make the right choices for itself, just as you cant leave it up to the government

It is a combination of all the factors that make up the checks and balances within a system

Pollution - VERY BAD! Green Energy GOOD! It is so hard to appreciate the simplistic nature of the decision, that you have to refer to a document that was written before pollution really started to effect people

If you dont understand my comments you can always ask for clarification instead of assuming

If your way worked for everybody then everybody would be doing it - let me know how many are in your camp

It is still amusing to find someone who thinks they have total control over their lives. Come on we have covered this point already so I will shut up on this

The government has always played an influence in the market because the market has the money and can influence the government

However, the government can create industries by making laws or imposing certain import/export taxes that will reflect what the social thoughts are for the day

Are you trying to tell me that you think the government doesnt influence the markets with the acts of laws and taxes, and if so are you saying that the government shouldnt have that right or power over the market?

ETWolverine

When you say things like "pollution-Bad" you really need to define what you mean.

Define pollution. Does it include CO2? Because if it does, I would argue that it is NOT bad.

"Green energy- good"? For whom? The 11w lightbulbs that are supposed to give off as much light as a 120W lightbulb generally don't. The light is dimmer, colder, and causes me to have headaches. The electric cars that are generally supposed to be more efficient than a gas fueled vehicle run out of juice after only 100 miles... and are therefore NOT efficient for long trips. Therefore, these products are NOT the best or most efficient items on the market FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING FORCED TO USE THEM. Despite your assumption that they are.

So you are making assumptions about what people are "supposed to know" that may or may not be true. And you are concluding that if YOU know it to be true, it must be true, and that if anyone DOESN'T believe the same way, they are either evil or stupid, and must therefore be controlled by government.

I'm saying that your assumptions about what is best for people have not been proven true, and that the only way for them to be proven true is to let the people decide for themselves... via the free market.

And for that reason alone, the government should NOT have influence over the markets, should not be allowed to control the markets, and should not have the power to determine what people should buy, use or sell.

If you really want to know what's best for the people, let the people make the decision. Otherwise all you are doing is making an unproven assumption and turning it into a government mandate.

Simply put, the government neither knows me nor cares what my needs are. Therefore, they cannot make the decisions that are in my best interest. I can.

Elliot

phlanx

So you think pollution is co2 - interesting

Pollution is the introduction of contaminants into an environment that causes instability, disorder, harm or discomfort to the ecosystem i.e. physical systems or living organisms

You also think that pollution is acceptable in any form if it can be justified - questionable!

You think electric cars only go for 100 miles - interesting, besides I was using them as an example, I could quite have easily stated Hydrogen Fuel Cars

You try to make argument based on pinpointing or nit picking a specific section, using energy saving light bulbs is just one way where we can reduce the energy cost

Or has America got all the energy it needs and doesnt rely on foreign markets for most of its use - have I got this wrong???

Tell you what Elliot, you go and live right next door to an industrial area that is pumping out pollutants all day - I am sure you and your son wil be more than happy to do that

Problem is pollutants dont just stay around an area, they tend to travel downwind, so what happens in another country can effect me and my family - thats why I have said several times -

Freedom Choice does not give anyone the right to take away anothers freedom of choice

Pollution from man is just stupid, especially as we can all work to providing cleaner air

None of what I have said is referring to global warming - I am still not convinced either, I am referring to what man can do to clean up his act

And whether you think the market should chose or not it is not as simple as allowing the minority to ruin what the majority want, or has the basis of democracy completly been thrown out of the window in favour for marketing trends?

tomder55

Our stupid Supreme Court has ruled C02 a pollutant and our EPA is running with the ruling to impose regulations on business under the pretext.
http://www.dieselnet.com/news/2007/04epa.php

phlanx

Salvo Tom

I appreciate most governments target Co2 specifically, but take a Diseil Engine in a car - it will produce :

* carbon (soot);
* carbon monoxide;
* aldehydes;
* nitrogen dioxide;
* sulphur dioxide;
* polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.

None of which anybody would like to breathe in but we all do

So regardless of what ever crap all our governments spout on, and why they do, the facts are this

If you want to carry on in a system where pollutants are consistantly pumped into the air, then please by all means try sucking on an exhaust pipe, if you want clean air, simply start switching to energy saving products that are being suplimented by the governments to get them to market quicker

Its a no-brainer