Hello

Today ahead of a meeting in Copenhagen it was agred that the EU will fund the improvement of the newer states to help them bring into line their emissons

News Sniffer - Revisionista 'EU strikes climate funding deal' diff viewer (2/3)

The essence is the EU will offer some 100bn euros to fund the gap between what was the old eastern blocks of europe and the western

As I have read quite a few thoughts from America on the idea that paying tax to help health care and other social programs is seen by many as a bad thing, I would be intrigued to read what America thinks about taxes being paid to fund industrial improvements in a different country?

phlanx

Evening Clete

There is a fundamental difference between the two

Foreign aid is to help a crisis of somesort

This type of treaty helps to bring their industry into line with everyone elses

Yours, the americans, and the western world has very similar setups for manufacture, distribution etc, all because an Ipod to you is an ipod to me (as a brief example)

By combining efforts you also set off a trend of cooperation which the EU's Theory is based on - a common market

Agricultiural subsidies in essence are needed, you cannot be producing too much of a food, just to see the market value drop considerably - I know that this is happening in some cases and the subsidies need to be looked at properly, but the essence is a good thing - stability is the key to economic growth - as long as you dont include the banks

paraclete

Steve what I see here is very typical of the confused thinking of the EU. What was once a common market, soveriegn countries cooperating, is now a United States of Europe. Agricultural subsidies in the EU create glut conditions, very undesirable, and they prevent produce from poorer countries being sold in the EU. Now the EU wants to convert the rust belt of the former Soviet Union into a bustling industrial base, and tell me, does the world need another China? Except this one will be a high cost manufacturer. Yes the people of central Europe are poor, I suggest you put them to work building windmills, perhaps this is what they have in mind. Prosperity comes when people do something for themselves, not when someone gives them money, This is a lesson the EU is yet to learn.

I think you will find the setups of Australia, the US and the EU are different. we had to overcome the impacts of Britain joining the EU on our industries and the rise of China. Our manufacturing industries are a shadow of what they once were. No big brother there to help us convert the rust belt, but fortunately this place is not red without reason. We send timber to China and get it back as furniture, Iron ore and Gas and get it back as TV's and PC's, Rice and Wheat and Meat. need I go on?

phlanx

I used to sell weighing equipment so I have seen nearly every industry there is in this country, and all of it has gone downwards

Reduced in numbers through new product devolopment, cheaper labour markets, better processing systems and need I go on

All of which have been replaced by different industries, distribution, services, finance, and so on

The fundamentals are still there, mining farming, etc but in a diminished capacity

No longer is a car built in one factory, but many factories around the world

I think the VW Golf is made in 8 different countries

The theory is this provides an environment for jobs to be created and markets to be opened up

When you state the common market, I was talking what the EU was founded on - the EC. And the backbone was set in stone within two years of its formation, all of which I am going so far back I was wearing flares and rainbow tshirts

The farm subsidies are a shambles now and needs reorganisation, just as we need to protect our farms, we need to ensure european farms are working and then the third world - it is not an easy thing to do, but I think eventually every countries agriculture will be sustainable

As regards, "the rustbelt of europe" let me introduce you to some poeple I know, they would love you saying that

Tell me, do you guys have immigration concerns with illegals from parts of asia trying to get into oz for a better life

Of course you do every western country suffers the same

So how much is illegal immigration costing us, in increased resourses and services required, strain on public systems and so on

We have a lot of Polish, and Romania coming here, most of which are hard working people, (regardless of what is happening with recessions) the pattern of illegals is not going to change until one simple thing happens

"Their markets are selling a loaf of bread at the same cost as it is in this country"

What you say as "putting them to work" I say we are, by getting them to a standard where immigration is through freedom of choice and not financial necessity

What will that do for our taxes, our resources?

What we will pay in tax today we will save tomorrow

What we cant sell today, we will be able to sell to tomorrow

As usual the politicans take time, arguing over who gets what for lunch etc, but the essence of the social reform occuring in europe I think is a good one to support

paraclete

steve I think you miss understood I said the eastern european countries the new members of the EU are the rust belt of the Soviet Union. Industries that no longer exist, but economic migrants from those places are now internally displaced persons surely not illegal immigrants. That's what you bought into when you joined the EU. No, you have many Illegals I'm sure from outside the EU, and they come from the same places as our illegals, so by all means redistribute the wealth of Europe through investment but remember the more you do the more inviting it becomes to all those outside the fence.

Now Australia is a different kettle of fish. if all our illegals had to camp with the aboriginals for a few years (third world conditions we are told) they wouldn't want to come but it is about time we installed them in the central desert, only thing is the aboriginals don't want them either. I don't know why they come we have enough kabab shops already. They have no skills to do the jobs that are available, dispite our million camels we have no jobs for camel drivers and unlike the americans we have no use for household servants

tomder55

What ? You don't have any lawns that need mowing or lettuce to pick ? lol Those jobs that Americans won't do except in times of recession ? I have to admit it .The stereotype about us is of our own making .
One can never have enough Mckababs.

paraclete

Tom our culture is very different to yours we have no history of having household servants.

No Tom we are no longer allowed to water our lawns so they only grow in spring and we have enough backpackers to pick the lettuce. Once we had manufacturing industries that could use these people as cannon fodder but those days are long gone. Our garment industry is now in China just like everything else and these illegal immigrants are no good at digging holes in the ground, we use Kiwi (New Zealanders) for that, but at least they can go home when they get laided off. As I said we don't need camel drivers and fish stocks are down so we don't need fishermen. We have hung out the help not wanted sign but as we speak only english the message isn't getting across and yes you can have too many kabab shops because these people just like maccas can't make a decent hamburger

phlanx

Clete

I think you are missing the point of how immigration, emmigration and the movements of industry are working

We cant look backwards, all industries move forward and as such the need for industry and the type changes

What is ahppening in oz is happening in most western countries

paraclete

Steve not quite sure what you mean. Unlike most western countries Australia has understood immigration very well. Perhaps we were ahead of many in the impacts on our industries from the rise of Asia and the EU. We went through twenty years of reconstruction where we paid people to leave certain industries because they were no longer viable. These are the industries that used to employ the lesser skilled migrants but you can't get the ones that come now to go into the fields and harvest crops or populate our vast interior.

If you mean that there are illegals arriving in boats, yes we do experience that, there are many foolish people in the world and it seems a number want to come here, risking their lives in the open ocean, a little different to trying to sneak across the channel or a border. Only today we have a report of a boat sunk 700 km from nowhere. We have our own set of problems and we don't want these people here because they fill our cities, placing strain on the infurstructure, We are continually fishing them out of the sea and we have nothing to offer them. Just getting them to speak English is a major exercise let alone getting them to do anything useful.

Australia and to some extent Europe and America is like a fabled land to these people, a cornucopia, where there is peace and plenty and the streets are paved with Gold. We are victims of our own publicity.

phlanx

Morning Clete

Typical ozzy, missing the point

You have all that land and yes I think most people in this country looks at yours and thinks you have the right way off handling immigration - a very tough stance

However, for whatever reason, these people are willing to risk their lives for what they see is a better life

Can you imagine anybody here willing to risk their lives crossing huge oceans and land masses without a airline ticket?

Regardless of whatever the legacy is about, the western world is at the forefront of social reform, fairness to all, social benefits etc etc

Until these countries that have mass migration sort themselves out or are sorted out this will not stop

At present due to the strengtening of the Euro and the weakness of the Pound, we have migration in reverse with hordes of Polish and Romannians going back to their countries

I only stated these two countries as an example of where EU policy and change is helping to stem the tide of immigration

If a home country becomes more attractive to stay then why would immigration be a problem?

ETWolverine

Yes... one grants greater power to governments, including the power of foreign governments to dictate policy in your country.

The other is a free-market approach that limits the power of government and puts choice in the hands of the people.

Elliot