For school we're having to write a persuasive paper on a topic of our chosing. I recently had to switch mine because, i was having issues finding information on my other topic. The topic i got switchted to is 'Contraception in schools' basically whether or not school nurses should or should be allowed to give out contraceptives, confidetially and at low cost. Just out of curiosity more than anything i was wondering what Other people thought about this topic. Any of your opinions would be apretiated, and/or imformation that could help me with my paper...

NeedKarma

And what does that have to do with contraception in schools? Are you implying that if contraception were not available in schools then we would have no incidences of underage girls having sex with older men?

ETWolverine

Read my post #87.

My point is that if a child has the wherewithal to make decisions about sex vis-a-vis condoms, BC and abortions, then that same child should be able to make decisions about sex with adults. In which case there is no such thing as statutory rape.

But if a child does not have the capacity to make decisions about sex with adults, then why do we say that they have the capacity to make decisions about sex with teens, abortions, condoms and birth control.

You can't have it both ways. Either they are able to decide, or they are not. Which is it?

If they are able to decide, then we can expect to see adults having consentual sex with kids without prosecuting the adults for statutory rape. And if they are unable to decide, then schools and PP have no right to be giving these kids abortions and condoms and birth control pills without parental consent.

Which way do you go, NK?

THAT is my point.

Elliot

NeedKarma

Sorry mate, those incidences of underage girls having sex with older men is not a situation cured by the teachings of abstinence or by the teachings of contraception (although if they know about conttraception then pregnancy and STD rates for those girls would be lower). Those girls obviously have absent parenting and would have done what they did regardless of what they are being taught in school. People need to take responsibilty for their kids and stop making the school liable for everything.

Elliot, do you talk to your kids? Do you know their friends and what they do online?

Altenweg

Wow, that's a twisted view of things. I live in Canada, the age here for sexual consent is 16 years old, I don't know what it is were you live. No I don't believe that teens should be having sex with 35 year old pedophiles (because that's what they are) and yes I believe that those "adults" should be prosecuted for statutory rape. Teenagers aren't adults, when it comes to sex, drugs etc., they are very naive and should be told all the risks involved i.e. pregnancy, std's etc." I believe in sex ed, not to teach them how to have sex but to teach them about sex, especially safe sex (although there is no such thing).

I find this debate very interesting, you seem to think that I want teenagers to have sex, I don't. What I am trying to say is that short of locking them in a convent or putting on a chastity belt we can't stop them from doing this. You can talk to them about being abstinent until you're blue in the face, but you can't be with them 24/7 and stuff happens. Teens are notorious for acting before thinking, it's part of being a teen. We all learned lessons from mistakes we made as teens, do you want the lesson to be parenthood or worse, aids, because you were unwilling to talk to your kids about contraception. Keeping the lines of communication open with your teens is very important. Tell them about contraception but also tell them that waiting until they're ready is the way to go.

I hope all this makes sense, I'm typing extremely fast trying to get all of my thoughts out. Having said that I'd like to remind everyone that this is a very touchy subject (obviously) and that we all have very different opinions on this subject. Everyone has valid points but it's hard to see someone else's point of view when you feel so passionately about a subject. Please keep that in mind, because I realize that I've been and am continuing to be (for lack of a better term) snarky with some of you. I do feel passionately about this issue, and even though I may not sound like it I do respect and value all of your opinions, please try to respect mine too.

jillianleab

Some good points there, ETW.

I asked earlier and I think my questions got lost in the mix - does anyone know the legal age for informed medical consent in the US? The information I got in a quick web search was unclear. I THINK it's 16, and if it is, PP providing abortions without parental consent is part of the law (to individuals over 16, that is) and if someone doesn't agree with that, they should fight the LAW, not PP. Do they provide abortions to individuals under 16 without consent? I'm not sure, but if they are, and it violates the law, well, something should be done about that.

ETW, regarding condoms being available in schools; you said the schools should not be pushing condoms without parental permission - does this mean you think condoms should only be sold to those over 18 (or 16, or whatever)? I'm just trying to clarify, honestly. Because if they can be sold to anyone of any age, what's the difference if they get them at school, from PP, the grocery store, 7-11, or the gas station bathroom? I agree that the pill should not be handed out without parental consent, but this clinic got around that by having parents sign a blanket consent form, so technically, they have consent. As underhanded and loop-holish (is that a word?) as that is, they do have consent. That must be how they've gotten around the legality of it all....

speechlesstx

Seems simple to me, too Elliot ... even obvious.

speechlesstx

I think we all agree teens are bound to make poor decisions and we can't lock them up to protect them from themselves, and that parents need to involved in their kids' lives. What I disagree with is the expanding role of the state as the parent - the erosion of parental rights.

On that note, Planned parenthood is the main proponent of sex education in schools and they will not tolerate any that does not follow their ideology. PP is a chief advocate of child rights, i.e. bypassing parental authority and values on issues such as BC, abortion and sex education. In essence, they don't think parents should have a say if their minor child wants to have sex, get BC or have an abortion, and if anyone - pro-life, pro-choice, pro-sex ed or not - cares about having a say in raising their children they should be appalled at the power grabs taking place. If anything this should be a bipartisan effort to make sure parents are still the parents and that kids can just be kids again.

Duly noted and appreciated. And, I like to get a little snarky, too

ETWolverine

NK,

AHHHH, so now we are getting to the real cause of the problem... parental absenteeism. Parents not teaching their kids not to have sex. We are in agreement on this point.

So, do you think we should solve this point by making schools and PP more responsible, or by making the parents live up to their responsibilities?

And again, the point is not about kids having sex with adults, NK. The point is about whether kids have the capacity to DECIDE.

My kids are 7 and 5, so it's really a moot point right now. But yes, I know what my kids are doing, who they do it with, and where they are. And I intend to continue that trend until they are adults capable of making their own decisions. We also don't have cable TV in the house, and only my wife's computer has internet access, and that is monitored by her.

Furthermore, because all the kids my children are in school (Yeshiva) with have the same religious/moral values, and because those religious values are stressed in both the home and the school, the incidence of teen sex is minimal, and the incidence of teem pregnancy is virtually nil. I think the last known case of unmarried teen pregnancy in the Orthodox Jewish community took place about 20 years ago, and was the talk of the entire religious Jewish community world-wide. It hasn't happened since. There is a stigma attached to teen sex and teen pregnancy in yeshivas that doesn't exist in most of the rest of American society.

So the fact is that if schools and parents work together to teach a moral value system in which abstinence is the norm, in which pre-marital sex is stigmatized, and in which teen pregnancy is a complete no-no, the result is that kids don't have sex with each other. No condoms or birth control are needed, no abortions are required and there is no fear of STDs. And given the number of kids that Orthodox Jewish families have, you can't say that they are uneducated in sex.

Abstinence training can and does work.

Altenweg

Exactly. They do not have the capacity to make such decisions. They are babies.

So why are we allowing them to get BC and have abortions without parental concent?

THAT is the entire thrust of my argument, Altenweg.

Not where I come from. See above. Stuff doesn't just happen. It only happens if parents don't do their jobs right or expect the school to do their jobs for them. And it would happen a lot less if both the parents and the schools were giving the same message, that kids should not be having sex. Period. No "but ifs", no "here's what to do if..." Just DON'T DO IT.

That's okay. I'm a speed reader.

I do respect your opinion, Altenweg. And I must say that you state your opinion very well. I disagree with it, which is why I give my opposing arguments. But I respect it, and your right to have it. I would never say that you don't have the right to that opinion, and I don't think I have intimated such a thing here. If I did, or if something I have said is taken that way, please accept my apology.

Elliot

speechlesstx

Whether they are now or not is unclear I believe, but they have shown their willingness to do so in the past and they make no bones about fighting for the right to minor abortion without parental consent. There is a PP clinic in Kansas under Grand Jury investigation for over 100 various violations but I'm going to withhold comment on that until it goes through the system.

Loop-holish, I like it. Much better than Webster's newest addition, w00t. And yes, that's how many get by with this type of thing, a blanket consent. If a kid goes in for a snotty nose and gets treated he can then go in and get BC.

Oh, and I imagine state laws vary on consent.

charlotte234s

Eh, if the parent hadn't failed already, the child wouldn't be bothering to go to PP for BC, Abortion, etc.