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I was wondering what peoploe think about organizations like the ACLU trying to get christian icons removed from public schools. They go as far as saying that even the colors red and green count as icons for christmas and should not be used. It seems to me they are a bunch of people who fight for freedom of expression and religion as long as your not a christian. In case anyone doesn't believe they (ACLU) aren't radicals, Hellen Keller was extremely radical (on the socialist side, which is understanable from her past of overcoming disabilities) and helped in the establishment of the ACLU. Any ideas? Further, are there any christians out there who are offended when corporations prohibit employees from wishing you a merry christmas?
I'm not from USA and am not familiar with ACLU, but the whole "ban the red and green color" seems like a mix of redicilous and stupid thing to fight for. I know I would be annoyed if they tried convincing (or even talking to) me not to use such colors because whatever reasons they might give me. I'm cool with them fighting for their own right, and they can choose not to use red and green color (i know it's just an example, but i have nothing else to say instead of that example), but if they annoy me with it - i won't like it. Same with homosexuals/vegetarians/people-who-decide-not-to-drive-a-car...fine, be what you want, do what you want, but don't force me to do the same thing you're doing.
About the corporations thing...i'm a christian, but i wouldn't wish a merry christmas to anyone i'm not sure would enjoy me wishing him/her a merry christmas. But i have friends for who i'm sure they celebrate christmas, so i do wish them a merry christmas when it's appropriate. I sure do not mind other people not wishing me a merry christmas.
I was wondering what peoploe think about organizations like the ACLU trying to get christian icons removed from public schools. They go as far as saying that even the colors red and green count as icons for christmas and should not be used. It seems to me they are a bunch of people who fight for freedom of expression and religion as long as your not a christian. In case anyone doesn't believe they (ACLU) aren't radicals, Hellen Keller was extremely radical (on the socialist side, which is understanable from her past of overcoming disabilities) and helped in the establishment of the ACLU. Any ideas? Further, are there any christians out there who are offended when corporations prohibit employees from wishing you a merry christmas?
Clearly you are anti-liberal. So anything you post has to be viewed in that light.
I consider myself a liberal. But I also pride myself on keeping an open mind about things. Somethng I haven't noticed in the few of your posts that I've read.
The ACLU considers themselves the watchdog of american liberties. They zealously guard those liberties whenever and wherever they feel they are being weakened. Do they go too far at times? I think so. But I would much rather have them err on the side of preserving liberties then allowing them to be weakened.
Your characterization of them being anti-christian is typical conservative blowing smoke. When the ACLU fights against religious icons in schools they do so because of the constitutional mandate of the separation of church and state. NOT because of any anti-christian attitude. I've seen cases where menorahs on public grounds were also fought against. On the other hand, I've never heard of the ACLU protesting the Rockefeller Center Christmas Tree or shopping malls having Santa Clauses or other religious decorations. that's because such places are PRIVATE property so no constitutional violation exists.
My personal philosophy is that anyone should be able to do anything they want up to but NOT including interfering with the right of someone else to do what they want.
Hi,
I agree completely with your post and comments.
I am a Christian.
The original Mayflower Pact contains the words "God" (not Gods), and says the reason for establishing a new world is for getting away from "religious persecution", to establish a place with "religious freedom under God".
The Pledge of Allegiance states "under God", again not Gods, meaning only one.
The Supreme Court building, highest court in the land, has the 10 Commandments.
Over 2000 yrs ago, Jesus was persecuted, and died for it.
Over the past 30 years, or even more, the ACLU, and some other minorities, have fought to stop all religious activities of Christians; and to change the basic purpose of why America was originally founded. Any changes as to why this country was founded, will not stand.
The words "liberal", "left", and "right" have become highly overused by the Media, and others, such as one answer here, to the point that Christian morals and values are on trial again, as they were over 2000 yrs ago.
According to National Polls, the majority of Americans say they are Christians; but the ACLU and others have gained so much, that they now speak out against the majority. They have gained through the courts, making laws against Christians, to pray anywhere they choose, or to worship God anywhere they choose. It will change.
Prayers taken away from the public schools, and the Pledge of Allegiance taken away using the words "under God" are the latest examples of the ACLU and others, trying to destroy Christianity. The next step will try to completely do away with the Pledge of Allegiance.
In some time to come, Christians will begin voting in hugh numbers, changing laws, changing Senators and Representatives, who vote against them. The time is coming that the "laws", imposed by a minority of non-christians, will be changed.
Parents, family members, others, who greatly oppose doing away with prayer anywhere, will be heard. It has already started.
It's a sad day when companies say "don't say Merry Christmas" at work, say "Happy Holidays".....you might offend someone.
There is a great problem when you continue to offend the majority, in the name of "law", by the ACLU and others. Laws will be changed in some time to come, to reflect the majority of Americans' beliefs in Christianity.
In the meantime, don't let up, don't "give in" to those who try telling you that
"you can't do this anymore". Their time will come.
History is a study of "cycles"; with changes made when the majority of Americans have finally had enough.
Hi, SSchultz,
I tried rating your post, as a great post, with great comments. However, I got the "you must wait before spreading around more ratings" popup.
I will try again later.
Prayers taken away from the public schools, and the Pledge of Allegiance taken away using the words "under God" are the latest examples of the ACLU and others, trying to destroy Christianity. The next step will try to completely do away with the Pledge of Allegiance.
What about those kids who attend public school and who are not christians?
Hi,
I agree completely with your post and comments.
I am a Christian.
The original Mayflower Pact contains the words "God" (not Gods), and says the reason for establishing a new world is for getting away from "religious persecution", to establish a place with "religious freedom under God".
The Pledge of Allegiance states "under God", again not Gods, meaning only one.
The Supreme Court building, highest court in the land, has the 10 Commandments.
Over 2000 yrs ago, Jesus was persecuted, and died for it.
Over the past 30 years, or even more, the ACLU, and some other minorities, have fought to stop all religious activities of Christians; and to change the basic purpose of why America was originally founded. Any changes as to why this country was founded, will not stand.
The words "liberal", "left", and "right" have become highly overused by the Media, and others, such as one answer here, to the point that Christian morals and values are on trial again, as they were over 2000 yrs ago.
According to National Polls, the majority of Americans say they are Christians; but the ACLU and others have gained so much, that they now speak out against the majority. They have gained through the courts, making laws against Christians, to pray anywhere they choose, or to worship God anywhere they choose. It will change.
Prayers taken away from the public schools, and the Pledge of Allegiance taken away using the words "under God" are the latest examples of the ACLU and others, trying to destroy Christianity. The next step will try to completely do away with the Pledge of Allegiance.
In some time to come, Christians will begin voting in hugh numbers, changing laws, changing Senators and Representatives, who vote against them. The time is coming that the "laws", imposed by a minority of non-christians, will be changed.
Parents, family members, others, who greatly oppose doing away with prayer anywhere, will be heard. It has already started.
It's a sad day when companies say "don't say Merry Christmas" at work, say "Happy Holidays".....you might offend someone.
There is a great problem when you continue to offend the majority, in the name of "law", by the ACLU and others. Laws will be changed in some time to come, to reflect the majority of Americans' beliefs in Christianity.
In the meantime, don't let up, don't "give in" to those who try telling you that
"you can't do this anymore". Their time will come.
History is a study of "cycles"; with changes made when the majority of Americans have finally had enough.
I wonder if you realize how contradictory and hypocritical this diatribe is? You start off with talking about how the Pilgrims sought religious freedom. From there you go on to imply religious freedon is OK as long as you're a christian.
The fact of the matter is the ACLU is about upholding the Constitution NOT about presecuting religion. They are against the use of publicly owned facilities used to promote a SPECIFIC religion. Thjis is because of the separation of church and state mandated by the Constitution.
This display of religious bigotry is VERY offensive. You talk about "offending the majority", but you care nothing about offending the minority. That is bigotry!
You talk about "Christian morals and values are on trial". But where did those morals and values come from? They come from the Old Testament, the Ten Commandments. Why do you think its called the Judeo-Christian ethic? But you leave that part out. More bigotry!
If we have religious freedom (and we do) that means EVERYONE should have the right to worship they way they want. Jews, Moslems, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Druids, Wiccans etc. You cannot have religious freedom if you suppress ANY religion. By allowing a public entity, like a school or government building, to promote one religion over another is an affront to religious freedom and should be fought. Either EVERY religion needs to be represented or none. That is the stance of the ACLU and should be the stance of EVERY American who believes (as I do) in the principles this country was founded on!
I can't believe that I just read your bigoted myopic tirade.
Do you see everything in such black and white terms ???
As Scott rightly said this is all down to your constitution seperating church from state, get used to it. This kind of thing has been happening in the UK for years, but nobody pays it much attention any more.
I will not dissaprove of anyone's opinion here, as we all have a right to think of this subject as we wish and to save my sanity I intend to stay neutral, but have a few ideas (mine only).
Don't intend to be wishy-washy on this thread, but religious debates boggle me.
I believe each of us has a right to celebrate a religion if needed, and that religion and politics should not dictate what one does at home or at the workplace. In schools there should be a choice as the students are our future descision makers and need the experience of all thoughts and religious ideas to grow and find a way to get along, so why not give them the choice, instead of parents forcing their ideals down their throats. This planet is everyone's home. Now, should colors, books about christmas, and christmas decorations be banned everywhere???? "the season to be jolly" has been so commercialized that I don't even enjoy it anymore - that's my choice, but I don't mind others around me enjoying it. This has been a controversial issue for centuries, but - Gosh, lets grow up.
I'm sorry Chery, but I have to disagree with some of your points, though I agree with others.
The key disagreement centers around bigotry. My Dictionary defines bigot as "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices". Bigotry leads to hatred. I have no problem in anyone following the Christian religion (or Moslem, Hindu or whatever). It is when someone tries to tell me that my following a different religion is wrong that I balk. And that's what Fred has done here. I have long supported the fact that people are entitled to their opinions, but I draw the line on opinions that have no basis in fact and that promote intolerance and/or hatred against others.
Like you, I generally shy away from religious debates because they tend to be a no win situation. But when someone is as bigoted and hypocritical as has been displayed here I feel compelled to comment.
As for school children being given a choice, I agree with the American Founding Fathers about keeping church and state separate. Having a state religion or having government promote a certain religion leads to persecution. On the other hand, I believe in the power and pursuit of knowledge. I am not averse to the teaching of ALL religions as long as they all are represented. And that is the problem because it would be almost impossible for schools to cover them all. So it would be better for that to be handled in the home.
And that is the other point that people from outside of America (and many Americans) seem to miss. The problem is not the display of religious icons or other trapings of religion. The problem is WHERE its displayed. As I said, there is no problem with having Santa Claus in malls, putting up Xmas trees and other holiday decorations as long as they are on PRIVATELY owned properties. The objection is SOLELY to the use of public/government facilities for these displays and the objection is SOLELY related to the mandates of the US Constitution not to any prejudice for or against a particular religion.
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