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I was wondering what peoploe think about organizations like the ACLU trying to get christian icons removed from public schools. They go as far as saying that even the colors red and green count as icons for christmas and should not be used. It seems to me they are a bunch of people who fight for freedom of expression and religion as long as your not a christian. In case anyone doesn't believe they (ACLU) aren't radicals, Hellen Keller was extremely radical (on the socialist side, which is understanable from her past of overcoming disabilities) and helped in the establishment of the ACLU. Any ideas? Further, are there any christians out there who are offended when corporations prohibit employees from wishing you a merry christmas?
I only live in Germany - and don't really like it.
Dear Scott, thanks for coming to my defense, but my dad was a soldier in the US Army, my stepdad also, and my ex-husband. As a child, going to Department of Defense schools, I prayed and pledged allegiance just like all other fellow students - it never bothered us, it bothered our parents which we did not understand then, but do now and it would have been better for parents to let us make up our own minds. I had a german mother, and that's why I stayed here to take care of her while she was sick. Now I'm stuck (cancer and other illnesses) in a country that has schools run by nuns and have a political faction called CDU (Christian Democratic Union) , - I still feel that Religion and Politics have no right to combine and dictate to people on what to believe or what is politcally correct. The reason I stay (for the most part) out of religious debates is that I was raped by a priest, and the media is full of priests doing things to young boys that is irreparable psychologically, and don't believe any human who sins has the right to tell me what the scriptures of any religion state and is 'false' christianity to me. I'm a big girl and can make up my own mind as to what to believe - and I believe in human values and the ability to interpret the will of religions teaching goodness and love towards one another. I was babtised a Lutheran which teaches subversion of women, so I stepped out of the church and don't pay church taxes which exist here. This is also why I did not have my child babtised and gave her the option to choose the religion (if any) to believe and follow. She had to go to a german school for a few years, and they actually graded you on your 'religion class' on the report cards - which I thought was wrong and took her out and put her into an 'ethics' class, because here you had three choices, catholic, protestant, and ethics. I had a 'wild hair' one day and told them that I'd prefer a Jewish class - you should have seen the reaction. She is still an agnostic and doing quite well in her life without being told by a human what 'God' wants her do do. We believe in being good a kind to people of all denominations unless they give us reason not to be. I am just as afraid of terrorists and fanatics as the next person, but don't put all in one barrell. The history of religious wars and Spanish Inquisition in the past, and the on-going religious wars today are enough to make me really sick of it all. I also lived in the south, my daughter was born in Georgia, and experienced all the fire and brimstone teachings; have had Jahova Witness friends; Mormon and Jewish friends; and religion was one thing we discussed out of couriosity, but not argued about. People immigrated to the US to escape persecution of their convictions and not have other's values forced down their throats and wanted freedom of religion and speech, etc, but look where it's going? There are may groups and organizations who's main function is to help others but also teach morals and religion which is just fine, as long as they don't push it too far to those who don't want anything to do with it. Isn't that the basic freedom initally escaped to? - and now, just because it's not agreed to by some who are powerful enough to make changes, the same thing that was run from is beginning to grow and fester all over again. That's why I said what I said about 'growing up' in my last post. So, again, if people need a religion as something to use as a crutch, that's fine, just don't force others to follow if they don't want to, and stop killing people over it! Because if there is a God, I'm sure that's not what 'he' wanted humankind to to. Another reason to 'grow up' after the novelty of the pretty lights (in any religion) get old, you realize most of it is commercialism anyway, and this is something we can give our kids credit to learn to realize themselves without the church or politicians getting involved. Ok, getting off my soapbox now, hope I did not offend anyone as it's not my intention, just my opinion. Peace! - too bad my smiley did not work here.. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_12_4.gif
Hi Chery,
First, let me applaud you for your bravery in talking about some of the trials you have experienced. Second, let me applaud you for what you have said here. I couldn't agree more with it.
I am jewish, but not a practicing one. I don't really believe in organized religion. In my opinion religion is a construction of mankind to explain certain mysteries. Its also a crutch mankind developed to allow it to deal with things like death, disasters, and other evils.
What I believe in is ethics. I believe in the Judeo-Christian ethic. I believe in the golden rule and I believe that everyone has the right to do what they want up to, but not including interfering with someone else's right to do the same.
My daughter is currently "trying to find herself". She is going to temple and to a church. I have supported her in this because she has the right to make her own decisions.
I tried to rate, but got the 'spread it' message again.
I'm sure we are not the only ones who feel this way, but it's a shame that they cannot for some reason express their views. This is a very sensitive subject, but we should all be free to express our feelings, as long as we don't harm anyone else in doing so - Also right about the 'crutch' - and some are better than drugs and alcohol and crime. I do respect the need for emotional stability for everyone and can relate with their choices, to me Ethics come first.
With all of the X-Mas debates and being afraid to "step on anyone else's toes"... Why is it ok to ban speaking about god and X-mas in schools and telling our kids not to use red/green colors. But... it is totally acceptable to have pictures of witches etc and black/orange colors used in schools? What morals are we teaching our kids? People tend to go along with the halloween thing because it's fun and candy is involved. Look at the true meanings.
I love this country and hope (not certain it will) stay the same. Am I conservative... yes, but I love what our country was founded on. Does this mean we cannot change and adopt new ideas or ways of life. No! What it does mean is this country was founded with certain beliefs. Beliefs that were so strong that we made a constitution, which includes being fair to all people, but not to the point where we destroy our beautiful country because we don't want ot piss off anyone. If we continue on our current path, what will the US look like in 10-20 years? I hope being PC does not destroy our country. I hope my children and their children will be able to have the same beliefs as our fore-fathers.
To those coming to the US: Don't like it here or feel offended. You think that coming to the US means you have the same rights as all americans. Yes, you do. BUT I don't think it should be to the degree that you change our country... send me your phone number... I'll meet you and help you get on the nearest plane to another country (I'll even pay for the flight) Shoot, maybe can start a campaign, everyone loves to protest. Let's start a "go back to wherever you came from movement" Let's think about this for a second... If it was so great where you came from....why did you leave? Where in the world can you go where you have the freedom's and liberty's available to you in the states? (also the ability to slam our government and any group because we get a bug up our butt. Just be careful where you pick as they tend to kill extremests!
Some good points Cralmic. It does seem hypocritical to allow Halloween celebrations and not Xmas. However, even though Halloween does have it origins in religion, it has moved far away from them and has become very much a secular and fun celebration. Christmas, however commercialized and secular it gets still can't get far enough away from what it is, a celebration of the birth of Christ. So while I see your point, I also see enough of a difference to not make a big deal out of it.
One of the greatest strengths of this country is our freedoms. Its also one of our greatest weaknesses as well. Our enemies have often used our freedoms against us. But is the answer limiting those freedoms? For the most part I have to say no.
Hi,
In reply to the "nobody pays much attention to it anymore" by Curlyben, is just the type of thing that is happening to America. If left alone, changes eventually come to be accepted, unnoticed, until someone finally realizes that all changes are not good.
Removing the Ten Commandments stones, plaques, and statues from Court House lawn in many states, particularly in TN, has caused quite an uproar from the majority living in that area.
The main points here about the ACLU is that freedom of Worship is being taken away from the majority, in favor of the minority.
ScottGem's comments are normal, and he makes some good points, but still, the problem for the Majority still exists.
The Basic Fundament Right of Christians, guaranteed by our fore-fathers, is being taken away by the ACLU and other minority organizations. This is a fact!
And, it's what this debate is.
Fortunately, Tyson Food Company, largest meat producer in the world, has developed a system of Chaplains, Ministers, etc, for talking with employees, helping with employee personal problems, etc. Prayer is allowed inside this company, at certain times, certain gathering places. Their productivity has increased, and their profits are increasing, due to happier employees.
This great company's ideas are beginning to spread to other companies and corporations. Other corporations are now looking at their own policies and changes are beginning. They realize the importance of prayer, talking with ministers, and leads to their bottom line, more profit.
Everyone will begin to see some changes made in laws, upholding Christians' rights, because it's already started.
What I ment by "nobody pays attention" is that the government may come out with all these hair brained ideas which are then ignored by the general population.
The best one at the moment is the ban on smoking in pubs and fox hunting.
The policy has been so badly thought that there are MASSIVE loop holes which are being used to keep the status quo as it was.
ScottGem's comments are normal, and he makes some good points, but still, the problem for the Majority still exists.
The Basic Fundament Right of Christians, guaranteed by our fore-fathers, is being taken away by the ACLU and other minority organizations. This is a fact!
And, it's what this debate is.
First, please define what you mean by my comments being "normal".
Second, There is no such thing as a "basic right of Christians" guaranteed by our forefathers or anyone else. Please provide some proof of that or retract it. What there is is a basic right of all americans to worship as they please. That's what religious freedom means. To say any one group has these rights is bigoted, intolerant and insensitive.
As for the ACLU or anyone taking away these rights, I again ask you to prove it. In my experience the ACLU is not trying to take anyone rights away, they are all about preserving the rights guaranteed by our constitution. Please don't state something as fact unless you can provide proof of the facts.
Hi,
I am so sorry to read about your dis-belief, and non-practice of religion, ScottGem. You have some very good qualities you allude to, for which really make you stand out as a caring person for your daughter.
Peace of mind, good feelings about yourself and others, come from believing in God. Some, like you, find these same feelings about themselves from other sources or ideas.
Debate is endless over Religion and Politics, and many things come out in them.
I truly hope you find faith eventually, in some form or other.
, - I still feel that Religion and Politics have no right to combine and dictate to people on what to believe or what is politcally correct. The reason I stay (for the most part) out of religious debates is that I was raped by a priest, and the media is full of priests doing things to young boys that is irreparable psychologically, and don't believe any human who sins has the right to tell me what the scriptures of any religion state and is 'false' christianity to me. I'm a big girl and can make up my own mind as to what to believe - and I believe in human values and the ability to interpret the will of religions teaching goodness and love towards one another. I was babtised a Lutheran which teaches subversion of women, so I stepped out of the church and don't pay church taxes which exist here. This is also why I did not have my child babtised and gave her the option to choose the religion (if any) to believe and follow. She had to go to a german school for a few years, and they actually graded you on your 'religion class' on the report cards - which I thought was wrong and took her out and put her into an 'ethics' class, because here you had three choices, catholic, protestant, and ethics. I had a 'wild hair' one day and told them that I'd prefer a Jewish class - you should have seen the reaction. She is still an agnostic and doing quite well in her life without being told by a human what 'God' wants her do do. We believe in being good a kind to people of all denominations unless they give us reason not to be. I am just as afraid of terrorists and fanatics as the next person, but don't put all in one barrell. The history of religious wars and Spanish Inquisition in the past, and the on-going religious wars today are enough to make me really sick of it all. I also lived in the south, my daughter was born in Georgia, and experienced all the fire and brimstone teachings; have had Jahova Witness friends; Mormon and Jewish friends; and religion was one thing we discussed out of couriosity, but not argued about. People immigrated to the US to escape persecution of their convictions and not have other's values forced down their throats and wanted freedom of religion and speech, etc, but look where it's going? There are may groups and organizations who's main function is to help others but also teach morals and religion which is just fine, as long as they don't push it too far to those who don't want anything to do with it. Isn't that the basic freedom initally escaped to? - and now, just because it's not agreed to by some who are powerful enough to make changes, the same thing that was run from is beginning to grow and fester all over again. That's why I said what I said about 'growing up' in my last post. So, again, if people need a religion as something to use as a crutch, that's fine, just don't force others to follow if they don't want to, and stop killing people over it! Because if there is a God, I'm sure that's not what 'he' wanted humankind to to. Another reason to 'grow up' after the novelty of the pretty lights (in any religion) get old, you realize most of it is commercialism anyway, and this is something we can give our kids credit to learn to realize themselves without the church or politicians getting involved. Ok, getting off my soapbox now, hope I did not offend anyone as it's not my intention, just my opinion. Peace! - too bad my smiley did not work here.. 
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