Americans stall climate efforts once again

paraclete · Nov 5, 2009, 02:09 PM

A year ago we looked for the promise of a new era but all we got is business as usual. That's the conclusion, the reality, of the US present position on combating climate change. I have to admit I'm a CO2 skeptic but I do know that climate change is happening but what I don't understand is that the politicians agree with the statistics but do nothing
Global climate change deal 'a year away' - Telegraph
So what I don't get is, if so many are convinced that a radical change in the way we produce and use energy is necessary, why don't we have the will to be more than bystanders? The problem is vast, the solution unclear, the goals shifting but that attitude that put a man on the moon has vanished. Obama is far more the leader of the we can't do it brigade that the leader of the we can do it team. It seems that truely only one problem can be tackled at time it isn't possible to fish and cut bait

ETWolverine · Nov 6, 2009, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

I see, global warming was invented by Al Gore. Actually it was invented by the Europeans to curb Yankee expansion

Elliot I agree that CO2 induced global warming may not exist or be a negligable factor, however climate change does exist and the statistics are not fabricated by politicians. Melting ice caps, vanishing glaciers, water shortages, drought, etc, etc. the climate has become more hostile in many parts of the world. But, If if doesn't actually happen in my town it isn't happening

You actually think politicians are smart enough to know when they are being manipulated by their own creation. You give them credit for an insight they don't demonstrate. No, they won't act only because they will be out on their fanny if they do. Self preservation is their only motive. I think part of the problem in the US is the impossibly short term offered to politicians, are they ever far from operating in election mode? Can they take their eye off the electorate and focus on the big picture and be brave enough to change anything? It is an illusion, They exist only to rubber stamp the executive.

Actually, my point is that it isn't happening ANYWHERE. There's never been any proof that it is. There's no evidence that the polar ice caps are melting. There's no evidence that temperatures have changed to any significant degree. And there is CERTAINLY no evidence that anything we do is linked to planetary temperature.

So you can accuse me of hiding my head in the sand all you want. But I can't really be accused of hiding from the facts if there are no facts. Or rather I can be, but there wouldn't be any truth to it.

Now... if you want to talk about pollution, I'm fine with that discussion. That's the discussion I was having with Phlanx, and I'm happy to give you my opinion of how to fix the situation without getting the government involved. But don't give me this drivel about global warming and polar ice caps melting, because it ain't happening.

Elliot

paraclete · Nov 6, 2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

So you can accuse me of hiding my head in the sand all you want. But I can't really be accused of hiding from the facts if there are no facts. Or rather I can be, but there wouldn't be any truth to it.

Elliot

Elliot let's get some perspective here, because I think we are both on different parts of the same page.

IS Global Warming happening? evidence would suggest that long term global warming is not happening. There have been short term fluctations

Is CO2 pollution? No CO2 is a substance that can be absorbed by vegetation and the problem of rising CO2 can also be attributed to destruction of forests and other natural factors

Should government be attempting to control pollution and emissions with a cap in trade scheme? No because giving licenses to pollution doesn't solve the problem

Are glaciers melting? Yes there is evidence this is happening world wide.

Has there been a reduction in arctic polar ice? yes there are observable reductions in polar ice in summer both as to extent and thickness

Can man have any impact on reversing what has been observed; Highly unlikely. Long term statistics suggest this is cyclical

Should we be trying to find viable alternatives to carbon based fuels? Yes, carbon based fuels are the. sources of many pollutants and in any case the supply is finite. Our economies are too dependent on the energy provided by these fuels

ETWolverine · Nov 9, 2009, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

Elliot let's get some perspective here, because I think we are both on different parts of the same page.

IS Global Warming happening? evidence would suggest that long term global warming is not happening. There have been short term fluctations

Is CO2 pollution? No CO2 is a substance that can be absorbed by vegetation and the problem of rising CO2 can also be attributed to destruction of forests and other natural factors

Should government be attempting to control pollution and emissions with a cap in trade scheme? No because giving licenses to pollution doesn't solve the problem

Are glaciers melting? Yes there is evidence this is happening world wide.

Has there been a reduction in arctic polar ice? yes there are observable reductions in polar ice in summer both as to extent and thickness

Can man have any impact on reversing what has been observed; Highly unlikely. Long term statistics suggest this is cyclical

Should we be trying to find viable alternatives to carbon based fuels? Yes, carbon based fuels are the. sources of many pollutants and in any case the supply is finite. Our economies are too dependent on the energy provided by these fuels

Clete, I agree with every word you have presented here.

Elliot

paraclete · Nov 9, 2009, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Clete, I agree with every word you have presented here.

Elliot

Really I though you said glaciers and polar ice caps weren't melting?

ETWolverine · Nov 9, 2009, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

Really I though you said glaciers and polar ice caps weren't melting?

They may or may not be melting... evidence is available for both ways. I've read at least two studies that have argued that the polar ice caps are GROWING not shrinking. But either way, it ain't caused by anything we are doing.

paraclete · Nov 9, 2009, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

They may or may not be melting... evidence is available for both ways. I've read at least two studies that have argued that the polar ice caps are GROWING not shrinking. But either way, it ain't caused by anything we are doing.

Come on, Elliot, get you story straight! back a little way you said there was no evidence, now you say there is conflicting evidence. Look, I know polar ice caps are growing in East Antarctica and shrinking in West Antarctica and that they appear to be shrinking in the Arctic. I agree we have minimum influence, something bigger is pushing this.

Please provide me with evidence glaciers are growing or at least not receeding.

The Earth is in a warming cycle, how long it will go on we don't know. What we do know is these cycles are followed by very long periods of intense cold. I think we do know that the tipping factors are such that change is sudden without understanding the mechanism. If we do tip into a cold cycle we are going to need very piece of technology to prevent our civilisation from imploding. I am pleased I live where I do because any closer to the poles is not the place to be



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