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    oohunter's Avatar
    oohunter Posts: 5, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Feb 9, 2012, 10:30 AM
    DrBill100 I live in Minnesota where they use first void urine testing for bac . Dwi
    Are there any studies to prove first void urine will be the same as second void or bac?
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    DrBill100 Posts: 3,241, Reputation: 502
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    #2

    Feb 9, 2012, 10:49 AM
    First and second void alcohol will always be different and cannot be correlated to BAC. I will look into the Minnesota process but I believe you will find that the UA is supplemental to other tests and used only to determine if in absorptive or elimination phase.

    Can you give me a little more information on the tests and testing procedure you are referencing, who and where performed.
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    DrBill100 Posts: 3,241, Reputation: 502
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    #3

    Feb 9, 2012, 11:07 AM
    That didn't take long... Minnesota seems to be the only jurisdiction in the nation that uses this process. I noted briefly that their practice has been appealed to the state supreme court (State v. Tanksley).

    Using urine, first void or not, to determine BAC seems contrary to reason and is certainly in conflict with recommended practice and all existing research.

    This is the first I heard of this and I'll try to find the results of the above cited case, it was scheduled for late 2011 and decision may not be issued.

    I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. I'm frankly baffled... no science supports this practice.
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    DrBill100 Posts: 3,241, Reputation: 502
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    #4

    Feb 9, 2012, 11:30 AM
    As follow-up see summary provided by an involved law firm: Minnesota Appeal

    In the Tanksley case the court ruled that the test need not be subjected to a test for reliability "that the general acceptance of F-VUAT testing by the scientific community was irrelevant."

    My legal competence is nil but I can assure you that a single void urine test to determine BAC has no support in the scientific community... but the court ruled that "irrelevant?" Amazing!
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    oohunter Posts: 5, Reputation: 1
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    #5

    Feb 9, 2012, 12:21 PM
    DrBill
    Do you know of any releiable studys done to prove the diffenrce between uac and bac?
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    DrBill100 Posts: 3,241, Reputation: 502
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    #6

    Feb 9, 2012, 01:17 PM
    Here are 2 studies but the Minnesota Supreme Court has already ruled that the scientific reliability of the test is "irrelevant." (see previous answers)

    Kaye & Cardona, American Journal of Clinical Pathology

    Giang, et al Forensic Science Journal

    There are at least 5 decades of research demonstrating why UAC and BAC cannot be reliably correlated.

    Alan W. Jones (A W Jones) is probably the leading authority on alcohol metabolism. You may wish to Google his name in connection with "urine, blood, alcohol" Derrick Pounder is another leading expert. That means that you will find published peer reviewed studies that carry scientific weight.

    However as previously noted the science behind the procedure will not currently be considered.
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