Ask Me Help Desk - When does God say 'Enough is Enough'?

Here's the scenario.

Someone has accepted Jesus as their personal Friend and Saviour.

From time to time that someone (lets be honest... me) will give into temptation and commit a private sin (one that only God knows about). After which I am extremely repentant and sorrowful. IF this happens infrequently but over a long period - Will God always forgive me?

I know that I should not sin, but from time to time I will have a moment of spiritual weakness and lapse. I (we) are surrounded by sin all the time (television, magazines etc). Should I not watch television (to metaphorically pluck my eye out) or should I be more prayerful?

Proverbs 6:14-15
In whose heart is perverseness, Who deviseth evil continually, Who soweth discord. Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; On a sudden shall he be broken, and that without remedy.

JPN
First of all , are you sure that what you do is a sin?
If it is , God's mercy and grace are ALWAYS available , all you have to do is ask !
A father is ALWAYS ready to help his child stand when that child for some reason falls.
TV , magazines etc. all those things are made for us, we choose on how we use them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam7gur

JPN
First of all , are you sure that what you do is a a sin?
.

I watch (pornography, albeit soft) for a few minutes,sometimes only for a few seconds.

It is definitelya sin (perhaps even an addiction. I generally make a point of avoiding it but I have my moments of weakness.

I understand that it is not a sin to be tempted. I am tempted every day with this sin and 99% of the time I resist but I guess sometimes I am not strong enough.

J

Things are not always the way they seem !
1 Samuel 27:1 And David said in his heart, I shall now perish one day by the hand of Saul: there is nothing better for me than that I should speedily escape into the land of the Philistines; and Saul shall despair of me, to seek me any more in any coast of Israel: so shall I escape out of his hand.
2 And David arose, and he passed over with the six hundred men that were with him unto Achish, the son of Maoch, king of Gath.

3 And David dwelt with Achish at Gath, he and his men, every man with his household, even David with his two wives, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail the Carmelitess, Nabal's wife.
4 And it was told Saul that David was fled to Gath: and he sought no more again for him.

5 And David said unto Achish, If I have now found grace in thine eyes, let them give me a place in some town in the country, that I may dwell there: for why should thy servant dwell in the royal city with thee?

6 Then Achish gave him Ziklag that day: wherefore Ziklag pertaineth unto the kings of Judah unto this day.

7 And the time that David dwelt in the country of the Philistines was a full year and four months.

Read carefully and find out if you can see yourself in David's place!

Remember , at that time it was a sin to have any kind of a relationship with someone who was not an Israelite , so to the eyes of the Israelites David was committing sin by doing what he did!

Its unfortunate that so many people feel the need to live their lives obiding by rules that belong to religions that aren't even real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FORCE_electric

its unfortunate that so many people feel the need to live their lives obiding by rules that belong to religions that arent even real.

FORCE_electric
The unfortunate thing is that so many people don't know or have forgotten who their Father is !This world is full of orphans not because their Father is dead , but because they lost him.Who is going to help those people to find their Father ?Do you know who your Father is?Do you know what He has done for you and still does day by day?Do you know that He paid what you had to pay and because you are too proud to accept that,you still owe? How unfortunate is that?
[B]God being my Father , that is my religion[/B]!You call that unreal?You are to find out how wrong you are!

When temptation arises, whether it's TV, magazines, computer, keep in the forefront of your mind the things that God hates and switch the channel, turn the page, click the off switch straight away, without hesitation! If an image is still in your mind, pray for God's holy spirit to help you be strong and overcome your weakness. If you truly want to please God you need to hate what God hates (Prov 8:13) and strive hard to win the battle against any weaknesses. Trust in God that he will help you. If you don't shake off the "old personality" then really how much do you want to change? (Eph 4:23,24)
Sure God forgives us but remember his people the Israelites. How many times did he keep forgiving them for their straying from his commandments? Time and time again and yet... eventually he did reject them up as his chosen people. Something to think about...

Moparbyfar
You wrote ''Sure God forgives us but remember his people the Israelites.How many times did he keep forgiving them for their straying from his commandments? Time and time again and yet... eventually he did reject them up as his chosen people.

When Did God rejected them? Israel was and still is God's chosen people.God chose Israel , no other nation and through Israel , we the nations are blessed to Know God!Yes Israel made many mistakes but remember ''Isaiah 62:1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.

2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.

4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured:

11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

:12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

This is a big issue but this is not the subjec here. If you want to you can start a thread and I will be happy to tell you more!

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam7gur

[QUOTE

This is a big issue but this is not the subject here. If you want to you can start a thread and I will be happy to tell you more!

Seems to me like YOU are wishing to make this a subject, yes? My point was that God has in the past not continually forgiven and we are no exception. Why don't you start a new thread RE this topic as it looks like something you are itching to discuss?

Quote:

When Did God rejected them?

In short, God rejected natural Israel for the last time when they rejected his son as their saviour. Matt 21:43 and Heb 8:9 confirms this. So God opened the way for all to benefit from Jesus death, not just Jews (Rev 5:9), beginning at Pentecost 33 CE when a new spiritual nation of Israel was born.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPN

Here's the scenario.

Someone has accepted Jesus as their personal Friend and Saviour.

From time to time that someone (lets be honest... me) will give into temptation and commit a private sin (one that only God knows about). After which I am extremely repentant and sorrowful. IF this happens infrequently but over a long period of time - Will God always forgive me?

I know that I should not sin, but from time to time I will have a moment of spiritual weakness and lapse. I (we) are surrounded by sin all the time (television, magazines etc). Should I not watch television (to metaphorically pluck my eye out) or should I be more prayerful?

Proverbs 6:14-15
In whose heart is perverseness, Who deviseth evil continually, Who soweth discord. Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; On a sudden shall he be broken, and that without remedy.

You are not alone :

Romans 7

Psalm 51

Hosea Bible.org: Undying Love—The Story of Hosea and Gomer

I find this passage hard to misinterpret:

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

needinfo08,

you are taking that out of context. Paul is talking to the Jewish people who went back to sacrificing after the death, burial and resurrection. Of our Lord. It isn't the same thing at all. If we don't put these verses in to context, understand what is going on, who is writing, who it is written to, then scripture would contradict itself. THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE!!

JPN,

The blood of Jesus Christ HIS son, cleanes us from all sin. All means ALL!

There are some great books out there that help when you are in a sin cycle. Great men of God that have struggled with this same problem and have overcome it. There are also some churches that have integrity groups for men. If I were you, I'd research your area and find some help and support.

The balance is found in the following:

1 Cor 6:12

12 "All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything.
RSV

It is not easy to leave "enslavement" even though we know that when we do give in we are dirtying our conscience for which Jesus died to free us.

I doubt if there is "one answer that fits all". Generally speaking it all comes down to getting back to God quickly when we sin... every time! But like Adam and Eve we try to go hide so God doesn't see our nakedness.

So follow what is in your heart according to what you wrote: repent immediately... and then ask for guidance and empowerment from Him... over and over again until the victory over this sin is won. And it may take a long time to overcome an area of your life where sin is solidly entrenched. Keep at it and don't doubt that if you resist the devil long enough, he must flee from you, who are a true child of God.

Also learn to forgive yourself just like you know God has already done.

Here is a great goal by one who also had problems with the past:

Phil 3:12-14

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
NIV

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

needinfo08,

you are taking that out of context.

I don't think so. The key is that the person is sinning willfully. What is the only Scriptural definition of sin? Sin is transgression of the law [torah] 1John 3:4. Regardless of the context everyone is held to the same standard---do not sin.

Per the Scriptures to be a saint you must: "...they that keep the commandments of YHWH, and the faith of Yahushua." Rev 14:12

Acts 10:34 "... Of a truth I perceive that YHWH is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness [follows the commandments], is accepted with him."

Everyone will be judged by the same standards. We do not have a license to sin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by needinfo08

Per the Scriptures to be a saint you must: "...they that keep the commandments of YHWH, and the faith of Yahushua." Rev 14:12

Acts 10:34 "...Of a truth I perceive that YHWH is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness [follows the commandments], is accepted with him." .

I agree that we need both the faith in God's promised Messiah and the faith which produces good works by the power of the Spirit of God.

However, the righteousness we have, by which we are saved IS NOT a righteousness which we produced by keeping the Law. It is God's righteousness given as a free gift to those who trust His promises:

Rom 3:19-25

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
NIV

Rom 10:1-4
10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.NIV

We are not those "under the Law" but rather children of promise... not of our fulfilling God's promise (like being born of Hagar), but as those who come about by promise (as through Sarah even though it was impossible)... not of Sinai, but of Zion. We live in the New Covenant put in force by the blood of Christ.

You are right that there is no license to sin. Those who believe that will eventually be so enslaved by the sin from which they had been set free that they will not count themselves worthy of God's love and forgiveness but will expect only His just wrath. They will throw away all hope that they had in God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by revdrgade

However, the righteousness we have, by which we are saved IS NOT a righteousness which we produced by keeping the Law. It is God's righteousness given as a free gift to those who trust His promises:

Agreed. But think of it as a prisoner who receives a pardon. The murder does not have the power/authority to pardon himself; the Governor has to do it. However, after receiving the pardon, can the person commit murder again and remain free? Of course not, he is not "working righteousness", he has trangressed the law. So without obedience to the law, there is no more sacrifice/pardon. In other words, forgiveness of past sins is by grace; receiving eternal life is by striving to keep the commandments.

Quote:

We are not those "under the Law" but rather children of promise... not of our fulfilling God's promise (like being born of Hagar), but as those who come about by promise (as through Sarah even though it was impossible)... not of Sinai, but of Zion. We live in the New Covenant put in force by the blood of Christ.

We are no longer "under the law of animal sacrifice". In the Wilderness, atonement was made by animal sacrifice in the Tabernacle, then later in the Temple. Now Messiah (Our Sacrificial Lamb) has come and we has forgiveness by His blood sacrifice. He replaced the need for animal sacrifice and the Temple in 30AD and then 40 years later the Temple was destroyed.

Matthew 5:17 "Think not [don't think for a minute] that I am come to destroy the law... "

revdrgade -

your comments regarding justification are right on the money but I fear that needinfo's understanding of justification is similar to that of the Pharisees, which was the only way to receive eternal life is by keeping the law. Paul taught that "in the sight of God, no flesh shall be JUSTIFIED"... that is to say, no one can be justified in of himself; only God can justify a person and render him/her worthy to receive eternal life.

Going pack to the original thread by JPN, the question was asked "...when does God say enough is enough?" I'd like to try to attempt to answer that question, if I may.

JPN, I really appreciate your tenderness of heart because it truly reveals the righteousness of your inward man. Let me explain. Throughout the New Testament, the teaching of the Apostles are all uniform in that they recognize something fundamental about being a believer: namely, that I must recognize that I am a sinner. Without such a perspective, it is impossible to comprehend the fullness of what the gospel means. The gospel itself is fundamentally this perspective that God is presenting to us about who He is and about who we are. When we understand that God is holy and that we are morally unworthy before God and deserving of His wrath, that is the place where humility aids us in accepting that the gospel is what I really need. When we accept the gospel as true and begin to align our lives with the truth of the bible, we begin to face a tension in our lives that is all too familiar to any believer who has ever taken God seriously about trying to live a righteous life. This is where I'd like to spend a minute or two addressing that tension.

JPN, anyone who loves God and strives after righteousness comes face to face with his or her own moral weakness. We are exposed to a lot of theology that sometimes helps up in our pursuit of truth but also theology that confuses us and discourages us. Sometimes we ourselves hold fast to ways of thinking that really cause our minds terrible affliction and irrationalness. So we contend with all kinds of things which really hinder our understanding of what the bible is saying regarding God's character and His dealings with those whom He has chosen, especially as it relates to sin and struggling. One of the fundamental questions that could be asked is this: “does God expect us to never sin.” That's a potentially misleading question so let me clarify what I mean. For all of us at some point, when we fail morally (or sin) we feel this internal anguish and frustration and we ask ourselves “why did I do that?” We then wonder, does God hate me for this or will He ever find it in Himself to forgive me? But what is the truth on this matter?

I argue that if a person has been chosen to receive eternal life, God begins to personally go to work on a person's soul to purge the crud and filth that pollutes us and causes us grief and sorrow in this life. Often times what we are told by well meaning people is that we can overcome temptation and sin by following three simple steps or some acronym devised by someone claiming to have insight into overcoming temptation, etc. Paul, however, in Romans, argues that while we are yet still in these mortal bodies of ours, we struggle inwardly between what we desire from our inner man (which is to obey God) and from what the body of sin desires. He notes that in Romans 7, the struggle with which he himself endured with covetousness. His response to these struggles was this: “who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank my God through my Lord Jesus Christ.” I would say that Paul's argument throughout Ch 5 – 7 is that what God has changed in me through my rebirth (or salvation) is that now my inner man has been changed to see that it is a good thing to strive after the goodness and righteousness of God. However, I am not yet the man that Jesus Christ will one day create me to be. I struggle with sin and I hate the sin in my life because it is terribly burdensome and grievous to desire so badly in my heart to obey God but find that often times I fall so short of what I know is good and right.

So what is wrong or what am I to think about these things? In my own thinking, I have come to conclude that what marks me as a child of God is that I really look at the bible and what God says and from my heart I say this: “God, I really want to do what you say is right but sometimes I really have a hard time doing what I know is right because the desire to do evil is sometimes so strong in me.” It's not that I do wrong which disqualifies me in the eyes of God, it's that I desire to love God and do what He says that indicates that He has qualified me to receive His mercy. We have to accept that the fullness of all of the promises made to us by God in the gospel, namely that someday we will be glorified, has not happened yet. This is why we are told to persevere in faith and not to lose heart. And as Paul says, the sufferings of this life are not worthy to be compared to the glory that is to be revealed in us. And as John says in 1 John 3, Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

The thought in view here is this: God's children long to be free from sin because in their hearts, they long to be able to know only one choice and that is to be completely and thoroughly free from evil so as to obey God utterly. We don't fully comprehend what such a state of being will be like because we have not experienced that life yet…this is why John says “what we will be has not yet appeared.” But the hope in which he refers to is a hope which ultimately purifies our conscience to keep striving after good, and that hope is this: that someday we will be like our Lord Jesus Christ in His character and nature, the sinless and glorious Son of God. JPN, take courage in this and persevere in your struggles, “for we have not a high priest who cannot empathize with us in our weakness but was in all points tempted as we are yet without sin.” He understands our struggle and if we are God's children, then He is not ashamed to call us brothers (or family) even though we are morally unworthy of God.

JPN,
I do believe what the bible says about God's mercy and forgiveness.
The bible tells us that if we are sorry for our sins and ask for forgiveness God will forgive us as we forgive others.
That is He forgives in the same way we forgive. If we forgive with conditions then that is the way He forgives us.
Jesus tells us that those who do not forgive will not be forgiven.
Forgiving others is a blessing.
It takes a big load off ones mind and soul.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakester

revdrgade -

... but I fear that needinfo's understanding of justification is similar to that of the Pharisees, which was the only way to receive eternal life is by keeping the law.

Unfortunately there is a failure among most to distinguish between the oral law (talmud) and the written law (torah). The Pharisees followed the oral law. The oral law was a list of do's and don'ts created by the rabbi over the centuries. It was a burden. There were over 1,500 rules on how to observe the Sabbath alone. If one reads Matthew chapters 5-7 you will see that the Messiah is showing them how to correctly follow the written law, not the oral law of the Pharisees.

Matt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men[oral law].

Also see their condemnation in Matthew 23. It can be easily shown that Paul and the disciples all continued to follow and teach the written law.

Quote:

Paul taught that "in the sight of God, no flesh shall be JUSTIFIED"... that is to say, no one can be justified in of himself;only God can justify a person...

Completely agree.

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... render him/her worthy to receive eternal life.

Question: How does YHWH determine if you are worthy to receive eternal life? What is the standard?

Rev 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life[eternal life], and may enter through the gates into the city."