You are missing the concept. I will repeat an example I gave before.

You are guilty of murder. You by going out and helping the poor, volunteering, etc. (doing good works) are still guilty of murder. You have broken the law. You are arrested. Your good works did not/can not save you from the electric chair. Only a pardon from the Governor who has the authority can save you. You repent of the crime of murder and ask for forgiveness. The Governor grants your parole. And says "Go and do not violate any more laws." Can you go out and commit murder again? Of course not!

• Being a murderer is you before accepting Messiah. Strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without YHWH in the world:
• Your "good works" could not save you from the electric chair (going to hell)
• You repent and the Governor (YHWH) forgives you.
• You were given mercy because you had a troubled background and didn't know any better.
• You were a Gentile a far off but now are "grated in"
• Now that you know better you cannot knowingly violate anymore laws (you must keep the commandments).

You are forgiven by grace not by keeping the law. Period. But how do you conduct yourself going forward? You strive to keep the commandments because that is your Father's will. Those our the laws of the new country you want to be a citizen of. Most Christians are keeping the 10 commandments but they need to add the 7 festivals and dietary laws. The rest are mostly not applicable.

needinfo,

Jesus said this to us... I will never leave you or forsake you. Notice he didn't put one single condition such as... I will never leave you or forsake you as long as you don't forsake me. The Apostle Paul says we are SEALED with the Holy spirit... now how can we be UNSEALED and at what poing does it happen? It is silly.

I do think that a Christian can sin and continue on in that sin without repenting. Sometimes the Lord takes him home because he is no longer a testimony. Paul even says that there is a sin unto death. You do not work for you salvation by keeping the law. Jesus said it the best hanging on the cross... IT IS FINISHED.

If thou shalt confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead... THOU SHALT BE SAVED.

It isn't hard to understand.. it is simple. WE make it hard when we refuse to rightly divide the word. Stop mixing law with grace.

Remember a christain song from a few years ago:

"We fall down, but we get up. We fall down, but we get up. We fall down, but we get up. For a saint is just a sinner who fell down, but got up."

That is striving to keep the commandments, it is a process. You don't keep making the same mistake over and over again. You lost your temper and cursed. Confess it and ask for forgiveness and He is faithful and just to forgive you of all unrighteousness. But you must purpose not to curse anymore.

"Keeping" is making the mental assent to do it. You are trying, that is the point.

You have to examine the Scriptures in their entirety. Here is a partial list of verses that contradict "once saved always saved" or "eternal life by grace":


You are not earning eternal life you are complying with what the King has ordered. You can't make up your own laws and live in America. You are not a ruler unto yourself; they are outside the gate.

I didn't realize we were going to play a semantics game. The intent of my post is to distinguish between willful sin and sin that was done in ignorance. "Past sins" implies sins done before you knew any better or before you came to repentance. "Willfull sins" are those done with pre-meditation. I am stating that those will not be forgiven. If you doubt what I am saying, here's a simple test. Go out tonight and commit some type of physical sin on purpose. Come home and pray for forgiveness. Then on Judgment Day confidently ask the Father to show you the verse that condemns you.

Gee, you got me there. You are stuck on the opening act; I talking about the finale.

I take it you are convinced that the law is not applicable to anyone anymore? If the law is done away with why is it being kept during the Millennial Reign?

Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Master of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Overheard in 30AD

YHWH: "Hey, Israel. Remember those 4,000 years when I told you to keep my law throughout your generations. I was only kidding. I must have had a brain fart. I was young then. All you have to do is believe real hard and then you can eat pork, break the sabbath, basically do whatever you want. Just ignore all the prophecies of being decieved in the last days. I didn't know what I was doing again. Oh, but the tithe, that one you need to keep doing. Well, Got to go make room for all the worldly christians that will be raptured out. Wouldn't want them to have to endure anything. Their special. Not everyone can believe real hard like them."

Do all believe The Word is Christ? Do all believe The Word was made Flesh? Do all believe The Word is the Bread of Life? The Bread and The Blood are what we eat and drink. Both must be found worthy in Christ or we are double minded.


James 4:5-6 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

To walk in Christ after baptism is newness of life, and we are to remain in the light. The light is Christ. Christ gave us a lamp for our path in The Word/Flesh/Bread of Life.

Psalms 119:104-115 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments. My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law. The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts. Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they [are] the rejoicing of my heart. I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes always, even unto the end. SAMECH. I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love. Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word. Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.


James 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

needinfo08 - I have just one question that I do hope you will answer. Have you ever willfully sinned since becoming a believer?

I definitely don't want to lie. But when I first became a beleiver, I did something that I may have not been sure was wrong but after I did it I felt the worst conviction in my spirit and never again came close to a repeat.

I think there are degrees to things also. You may see a beautiful woman and as a reflex stare but when you become aware of it, you need to stop. If you feel the unction from the Spirit to turn away and you think to yourself "forget that", then there is a problem. Habitually ignoring the Spirit will lead to a problem. But adultery, fornication, idolatry I think are more serious and might be a 1 strike your out. Of course, these are my views but I know we can't ignore the Spirit forever and expect to be Blessed.

needinfo - I love the fact that you were willing to be a little forthcoming about your personal life. I didn't ask to embarrass you but to put your own theology on the spot.

Your answer is revealing, though. You claim to have had only one experience since you became a believer in which you may have sinned willfully, but it really doesn't sound like an admission of guilt. Frankly, I find it really hard to believe that there could be only one occasion in your life as a Christian where you sinned willfully. Again, I'm not saying this to embarrass you but I just don't think you are being honest with yourself.

Secondly, I note your hesitation to speak confidently about your position on willful sins leading to condemnation: "But adultery, fornication, idolatry I think are more serious and MIGHT be a 1 strike your out." You said MIGHT... why are you so tentative to speak confidently about your real position? Your position is that you cannot receive eternal life if you sin willfully after you receive the truth. By your own logic and theology, you would be disqualified from eternal life due to your own willful sin after becoming a believer. And you admitted that you did sin willfully after you became a believer. My friend, either there is 1 strike you're out as you put it, or there aren't any strikes. It can't be both and I sense that you're hesitancy in being confident in your position stems from the fact that you realize that you are a sinner and that if God were keeping strikes against you, it would be game over for you.

I'm just trying to be honest and help you see the real implications of your own theology as it relates to your life.

By the way, I know I have sinned willfully since becoming a believer but I don't say that glibly... I do desire to follow God and do His will.

How did you get to "there aren't any strikes"?

Maybe we will be judged by the level of our understanding of things at different points in our walk(judges based on your heart). I don't know. I do know that the Spirit leads me and convicts me of sin.

Rev 2:23 "... know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts:
and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

I personally think that physical sins are on a short leash because of what Paul says:


Obviously, I don't know everything, but I think what I have presented is valid. The Scriptures say, YHWH will not be mocked and you reap what you sow. If you continue to fornicate, worship idols, blaspheme, lie, etc. the gates to the Kingdom will be closed to you. You can bank on that. I make a distinction between mental and physical sins because the Scriptures do. I would say I have not willfully physically sinned but like I said I was not certain at the time. But then again the Spirit is still with me so either I didn't sin willfully or there is a learning curve.

Was there ever a time when I felt the Spirit tell me something and I said "No"? I don't think so. I am not emphatic because I don't want to be wrong in my recollection and have to answer for it. I am fallible. The Spirit had led me to fast for 10 days with nothing but water. I didn't know how long I was to fast in the beginning and after about 5 days I really felt like saying no. But I did not. That and when I was told to stop smoking cold turkey after 17 years were 2 of the hardest things I was asked to do.

One thing is for sure, there is more to being a believer than what is taught at most "churches". And it took me years to piece all these things together (including things that I have talked about yet) so I don't expect people to drop what they believe overnight. But there is no denying that there is truth to what I am saying, it is stirring us in the face whenever you open the Scriptures.

Ok... fine. I'm not going to convince you of anything and now you are being rude and condescending... Gee. Wonder if that is a willful sin? Naah couldn't be... you don't do that anymore. LOL ;)

Sorry you are offended. My point was to show how implausible that theology is through satire. You have to admit that is pretty much what would have to have taken place for the law to be replaced.

[QUOTE= It has got to be apparent that something more is required than just the forgiveness of your sins. You have to meet some standard or else you are hurt by the second death or blotted out of the book of life.[/QUOTE]

Maybe our difference in only on the concept of "required" which you used in the above quote.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote a book on "The Cost of Discipleship". In it he addressed what he called "cheap grace". I believe this "cheap grace" is what you are addressing. There are, indeed, many who call themselves Christians because one day they heard the word of free salvation, rejoiced in it, and then went back to their own way. Jesus tells of them in the parable of the seed/word scattered in the field. Most who "received" the Word had no productive life in the kingdom of God. The Word died in and with them.

But those who received the word were said to be the "good soil". They were productive in the kingdom of God and bore much fruit.

Are we talking about this difference? : People who think that they are saved because they met Jesus one day and then returned to their sinful lives vs those who left everything and followed Him for the rest of their lives?

We can't do much for the "rocky soil...thistle" people.
And those who HAVE given their lives to their Lord only need encouragement to keep trusting in Him as the one who strengthens us during the times when God seems absent for a time.


John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires ?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
NIV


Rom 13:8-10
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
NIV

Need,
Hey, I am NOT offended. ANDI was using sarcasm to show you that you willfully sin whether you choose to call it that or not. My point is to show you how preposterous your claims that the Holy Spirt can leave a born again believe... that is the whole point of being born again. We are sealed with Christ Spirit to do things that we could NEVER do in the flesh. We live in the age of Grace and that is a much higher standard than the law... fyi. To say that the Holy Spirit suddenly leaves a believer really is nuts. At what point does he do this? How far is too far. Please.

I am free to eat pork and I do. I don't follow the sabbath because I am not a Jew under the law. I am not willfully sinning... I am rightly dividing the Word of truth. But I have been round and round this mountain with a few others. I never convinced them... and they never ever convinced me. So... you can put yourself under the law if you wish. ME? I am going to go whip up some fried pork chops for dinner. :D

I like what you are saying and I hope you are right. I have agonized over this for years. There are just some verses that I cannot get out of my mind. However, Romans is a Chapter I have not read much so maybe I will dig into it again. We are in definite agreement that about "cheap grace" though.
Peace

needinfo08.
You are right again.
Don't let Tj3 mislead you as he has others.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That sacrifice did nothing to pay the price for sin:

Heb 10:3-6
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
NKJV

So now you call Paul a leader of heretics, and calling the Nazarenes heretics! Wow. Perhaps you'd like to validate your claims from scripture. BTW, your quote is from a man who lived in the 4th century - Paul lived in the 1st century.

That says more than I could even say in exposing how far off base you are.

Remember Paul was called by God to write the largest portion of the New Testament.

BTW, it is not Paul who in scripture is called a Nazarene:

Matt 2:19-23
19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 saying, "Arise, take the young Child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the young Child's life are dead." 21 Then he arose, took the young Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea instead of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned by God in a dream, he turned aside into the region of Galilee. 23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene."
NKJV