[31pumpkin]

I was wondering whether their really was a Pergatory.

It has been a long time since I was a Catholic. I call myself a non-denominational Christian. While I definitely do not believe in" venial" sin, I am believing in Pergatory again. I recently had an experience in my Spirit, and through the Spirit, where I at long last forgave someone dear. I saw "them" get freed from Pergatory, and it was almost too much for me to take. Just prior to this experience I had been reading in Revelation about "and the sea gave up their dead" and one thing lead to another in prayer.

So, does anyone have an opinion on Pergatory. Why or why not they believe in it?

[RickJ]

I do. Who'da thunk? :p

Truth is, the idea of a place of purification (for those who need it) is more a part of the historic Christian faith than believing there is none.

Here's a brief introduction:

If sin still clings to Christians (Heb 12:1), but there is no sin in heaven (Rev. 21:27), there must be a purification that takes place after one’s death and before one enters heaven. Even if it were "in the blink of an eye," this final stage of sanctification must take place, so those who die in God’s favor may be cleansed if any affection for sin remains in them.

Paul mentions this in 1 Cor. 3:13–15: "Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Paul’s thought calls to mind the image of God as the refiner’s fire and fuller’s soap mentioned in Malachi 3:2. The fuller’s soap was lye or alkaline salt that removed stains from clothing. A refiner’s fire was an oven of intense heat where precious metals were placed in order to purify them of their corrosion and dross. In the same way, purgatory is when a soul is immersed into the fire of God’s love and lifted out of the residue of its imperfections. [source]

Hope that helps.

[jduke44]

I personally don't believe in it. I was brought up Catholic and was taught that we can "pray" our loved ones to Heaven. I think that is what was taught, it was a long time ago. I believe you get one chance here on earth and that's it.

I am interested in hearing other points of views that could prove me wrong.

[Fr_Chuck]

I believe that there has to be, since the christians teach that we don't go to heaven until judgement, so from the time we die till judgement we have to be somewhere. And Jesus told the criminal that he would see him tomorrow in paradise, and we know that the day after he died, Christ had not risen to heaven yet either.

So while we are not told the exact details, I guess because it should not be the important part or issue, there by process of what we are told, there has to be some temp waiting area.

I believe that we can believe in it, from all faiths and should, without accepting all the teachings of the catholic church on the matter.

[RickJ]

That we could "pray someone to heaven" is not an accurate Catholic teaching. The effect of prayer is a far deeper subject; I was only trying to give some biblical basis for purgatory.

[jduke44]

That we could "pray someone to heaven" is not an accurate Catholic teaching. The effect of prayer is a far deeper subject; I was only trying to give some biblical basis for purgatory.

I appreciate the clarification Rick. It was well put. I couldn't comment on it because I had to spread my comments around. I often wonder about that. I thought I was taught that through the Catholic church I went to. You and Fr Chuck seem to be of a more biblical teaching than when I went to a Catholic church. I didn't know any better back then but I did know something was a bit off. While I may not hold the same "rituals" as what you mention I do respect the reason they are in place. Sorry about the word "ritual" that may not be the right word I am looking for.

You two seem to hold a deeper meaning of some of the sacrements and traditions (maybe that is more accurate than rituals) which I have held back on believing.

This is harder to explain than I thought. I guess what I am saying, I appreciate your input (Rick and Fr Chuck) from a Catholic point of view because it brings in a fresh new perspective for me on Christian teachings.

Are there different teachings of Catholics that I may not be aware of? What I mean is are there some that may believe that purgatory is "praying someone into Heaven" as opposed to just simply it being a holding place until judgement?

[RickJ]

Yes there are different teachings that claim to be "catholic"... or "Catholic".
By "Catholic" many people think Roman Catholic, which is my faith... but there are others, as my friend Fr_Chuch, who also use the term Catholic to describe their church or faith.

I do not point out this difference to demean, but to clarify. Truth is, jduke, I can tell from your posts that you, I and Chuck would be in agreement on 100% on "what really matters". The other stuff would be a matter of practice.

In short summary: What we Roman Catholics call "purgatory" is hinted to by Scripture authors, and is simply the word we use to describe what is hinted at.

No person living can say with certainty exactly exactly what happens between the moment of the expiraton of our earthly bodies and the time that we land in our place of eternity.

Am I clarifying at all, or just making things more confusing?:o

[jduke44]

You have clarified this. :)

I agree that we three are in 100% agreement with "what really matters".

I have learned (and very recently) not to get caught up in the doctrinal or traditions, if you will, rather than presenting someone the Peace of God.

I also agree that we can't say 100% what is going to happen to our bodies after we expire. We can only speculate from what we read in the Bible and what the Spirit has confirmed in our hearts. Thanks Rick.

[TxGreaseMonkey]

You will find no reference to Purgatory in the Bible; however, you will find references to heaven and hell. We either accept God's pardon for the sin in our life, by trusting in Jesus Christ alone for our eternal life (not in our good works), or we will spend eternity separated from God in hell. You are either saved or lost for all eternity. For the true Christian, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That's why it is so imperative that people read their Bible and not take other people's word for this. The greatest verse in the Bible is John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not parish, but have everlasting life."

[Starman]

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

Since I don't perceive any biblical evidence for it I don't believe it.

[RickJ]

"Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become manifest; for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:12-15).

Note that the person does go to Heaven... but what is this loss? We call it Purgatory.

[speedball1]

Well I don't know about you guys but I've experienced purgatory right here on earth. It was called "Divorce Court". Hell on earth soon followed amd that was called "Setlement and Alimony". I'm living proof that purgatory exists and that there really is a "hell on earth".

[Fr_Chuck]

Divorce and settlement, I was once told to save myself all that trouble, go find a women I hated and give her all my money, it would save me a lot of trouble with the between part

Jewish theology
The Jewish Talmud may be thought to indicate Purgatory in Sabbath 33b and Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a; a similar belief in the efficacy of prayers for the dead is manifest in the Mourner's Kaddish which is prayed for 11 months after a loved one dies. The Septuagint Scriptures do include the Maccabees which incorporate prayer for the dead (2 Mac 12:42-45). However, Jewish theology is inconclusive about Jewish teaching in this area, as indeed it is about almost all life-after-death teachings. One should note though, that Jews do pray for their dead.

Islamic view
There are some who feel the Islamic concept of Barzakh is relational to Purgatory, but this is disputed. It is a place of judgement until the last day. What relationship, if any, this has to Purgatory or hamistagan is not entirely clear. Others believe that the statement that sinners who go to Hell can be purified and sent to Heaven if they had "an atom's weight of faith in them" in life makes the Islamic Hell closer to the Catholic purgatory.

There is also Araf, which is a borderland between Hell and Heaven. Those who escape from Hell must stay here till they are allowed into Heaven. Also, children and lunatics who are neither good nor evil go here.

[31pumpkin]

Well, I've been noticing (a few times in other religion threads here) how some of the Biblical scripture implies judgment day is something that happens when Armeggedon takes place & Jesus returns. All right, agreed. However, I'm a bit confused about why some Christians here think we might go into a "holding place" after death to await that judgment.
For those who have died in Christ - have they not already gone to heaven?
I listened to my current pastor & former pastor always refer to,"when you die you will stand before the Lord, and His only question will be whether you know
Christ or not".
So this "holding area" some here on AMHD have mentioned - as a place for purification first - could that be a Pergatory state?

I say this because many people will say," Oh, mom's gone to Heaven. Or some other loved one's 'in Heaven' ". Surely they don't ever consider any "holding place" for their loved one! :confused:

And I personally have had a spiritual connection with my mother for many years since she died. I don't think I can have those revelations of her if she was in some holding place. I think the souls are too limited to be alive in the spiritual realm. :rolleyes:

That experience I mentioned (and it probably will only be once) has me wondering about Pergatory for sure.

36 yrs. I have accepted the "absence of Heaven" for this person. I never lit a candle or anything - but this year something was revealed to me in my Spirit after forgiving them - so maybe that's MY answer from God. Whatever I find out hereon will be OK, but just if that's all- well, it gave me hope when there was none. :)