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arcura · Nov 21, 2008, 07:59 PM

N0help4u,
Thanks,
Fred

Galveston1 · Nov 22, 2008, 09:51 AM

Fred, if the "he" in 2 Thes is not the church, restraining the full release of evil in the earth, then who or what do you think that restraining person is?

As far as tribulation, Christians have had tribulation from the very first, staring with Steven. This is entirely different from the Great Tribulation which has a definite time frame.

Yes, Jesus will return only one time. He will not come to the earth to call His Church.

There will be multitudes saved during the Great Tribulation, and they are the tribulation saints.

450donn · Nov 22, 2008, 03:20 PM

It really amazes me how many interpretations of the Word of God there are? The end of this age is clearly marked my the Jewish return to their home land (1948). The signs are everywhere, one man can speak and instantly be heard around the world, atomic bomb that will incinerate a person before they can feel any pain. The gospel is being heard around the world. We are clearly in the last days. The question remains, do You believe that we ( the church of Christ) will be taken away and this will signal the beginning of the 7 years tribulation or do you believe that the church will live through it?
Personally, the rapture (snatching up of the church) will signal the beginning of the end. That satan will be loosed to rein for 7 years. The actual tribulation period will begin when the antichrist makes the covenant with Isreal for peace in the land. But half way through 93-1/2 years) he breaks the promise and that is when God releases the apoloclips as revealed in Revelations. Am I right or wrong and why?

N0help4u · Nov 22, 2008, 04:45 PM

I believe we will live through it and if there is a pretrib rapture it will be the Christians that have been really living it and have their lives right.
The seven years will begin when the conformation of the covenant is signed. Bush wanted to be the one to sign it before he left office but so far he hasn't.

Tj3 · Nov 22, 2008, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I believe we will live through it and if there is a pretrib rapture it will be the Christians that have been really living it and have their lives right.

This is where I have to disagree. Whether we are living our lives right or not, I don't that that would make a difference on whether we partake in the rapture. All of us are sinner whose only righteousness is that imputed by Christ for thopse who have received him as Saviour.

arcura · Nov 22, 2008, 07:28 PM

Galviston1,
Read the whole passage. The 'he" is definitely not the Church...
2 Thessalonians 2
From the New Jerusalem Bible
The coming of the Lord and the prelude to it
1. About the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, brothers, and our being gathered to him:
2. please do not be too easily thrown into confusion or alarmed by any manifestation of the Spirit or any statement or any letter claiming to come from us, suggesting that the Day of the Lord has already arrived.
3. Never let anyone deceive you in any way.
It cannot happen until the Great Revolt has taken place and there has appeared the wicked One, the lost One,
4. the Enemy, who raises himself above every so-called God or object of worship to enthrone himself in God's sanctuary and flaunts the claim that he is God.
5. Surely you remember my telling you about this when I was with you?
6. And you know, too, what is still holding him back from appearing before his appointed time.
7. The mystery of wickedness is already at work, but let him who is restraining it once be removed,
8. and the wicked One will appear openly. The Lord will destroy him with the breath of his mouth and will annihilate him with his glorious appearance at his coming.

9. But the coming of the wicked One will be marked by Satan being at work in all kinds of counterfeit miracles and signs and wonders,
10. And every wicked deception aimed at those who are on the way to destruction because they would not accept the love of the truth and so be saved.
11. And therefore God sends on them a power that deludes people so that they believe what is false,
12. And so that those who do not believe the truth and take their pleasure in wickedness may all be condemned.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Galveston1 · Nov 24, 2008, 03:21 PM

Even in the version you quote, Fred, there is still a restraining force. I believe it is the Church, but you still haven't told us what you think he is.

You must have some idea of your own about it or you would not disagree with me. Right?

N0help4u · Nov 24, 2008, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

This is where I have to disagree. Whether we are living our lives right or not, I don't that that would make a difference on whether we partake in the rapture. All of us are sinner whose only righteousness is that imputed by Christ for thopse who have received him as Saviour.

The Bible does differentiate between Christians that live a Christian life and it says God will spew lukewarm Christians out. It does talk about Christians that he even will say depart I never knew you.

Tj3 · Nov 24, 2008, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

The Bible does differentiate between Christians that live a Christian life and it says God will spew lukewarm Christians out.

If they are neither hot nor cold, what makes you think that they are Christians?

It does talk about Christians that he even will say depart I never knew you.

If He never knew them, then they were NOT Christians.

N0help4u · Nov 24, 2008, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

If they are neither hot nor cold, what makes you think that they are Christians?

If He never knew them, then they were NOT Christians.

True but many believe they are and from that perspective many will be left and will have to re evaluate and get it right.
The Bible says there will be Christians during the tribulation and many say they will be the ones that said they believed but didn't live a Christian life or backslid.

Tj3 · Nov 24, 2008, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

True but many believe they are and from that perspective many will be left and will have to re evaluate and get it right.

People believe all sorts of things. But I would think that if those people truly had a love of truth, they would follow the Holy Spirit where He leads them. And the Holy Spirit responds to a persons love of truth. So I do not think that there will be very many who care about truth who will be left behind.

arcura · Nov 24, 2008, 08:43 PM

Galveston1,
I have no idea who the "He" is.
The Church is called a she, the bride if Christ.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT · Nov 25, 2008, 06:38 AM

Gal AND Arcura,

Couldn't the HE be the Holy Spirt that indwells every believer? When every believer is raptured out of here, HE goes to. "HE"is the restrainer. Now I am not suggesting that the Holy Spirit will leave the earth completely. Certainly he was here before he indwelt the believer.. but HE won't be INSIDE us anymore and that is going to make a HUGE difference. What say you?

arcura · Nov 25, 2008, 03:44 PM

classyT
That's a thought to ponder.
Thanks,
Fred

Galveston1 · Nov 25, 2008, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Galveston1,
I have no idea who the "He" is.
The Church is called a she, the bride if Christ.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Give us the scripture reference so we can consider it.

1 Cor 12:27
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
(KJV)

Eph 4:11-12
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(KJV)

Galveston1 · Nov 25, 2008, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

gal AND Arcura,

Couldn't the HE be the Holy Spirt that indwells every believer? When every believer is raptured out of here, HE goes to. "HE"is the restrainer. Now I am not suggesting that the Holy Spirit will leave the earth completely. Certainly he was here before he indwelt the believer..but HE won't be INSIDE us anymore and that is gonna make a HUGE difference. What say you?

With all due respect, I doubt the "he" is the Holy Spirit.

God is omnipresent, so there never will be a time when He is not here. (as you say) Also, Jesus said plainly that no one comes to Him unless the Father draws that person. We know many will accept Jesus during the time of Anti-Christ, so the Holy Spirit will be active all through most of that period.

Even if you are completely right, doesn't that still make the church the restraining force?

arcura · Nov 25, 2008, 04:55 PM

This passage is interpreted to be the marriage of Christ to His bride The Church who is making herself ready for His coming.
Rev 19: 7. "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
8. And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9. And he said to me, "Write, `Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, "These are true words of God."
10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT · Nov 25, 2008, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Galveston1

With all due respect, I doubt the "he" is the Holy Spirit.

God is omnipresent, so there never will be a time when He is not here. (as you say) Also, Jesus said plainly that no one comes to Him unless the Father draws that person. We know many will accept Jesus during the time of Anti-Christ, so the Holy Spirit will be active all through most of that period.

Even if you are completely right, doesn't that still make the church the restraining force?

Gal,

I believe the Church is the restraining force because of THE HOLY SPIRIT! And if you will read my post.. I said he ( the holy spirit) will not completely leave the earth but he will not be operating through us. I think the he you refer to is the Holy Spirit and I do not think think the Lord would refer to the Church as a he... I agree with Fred that we are the Bride. But I agree with you that the church that is indwelt with the holy spirit and HE is restraining the Anti Christ RIGHT NOW.

arcura · Nov 25, 2008, 09:08 PM

classyT,
Actually I believe that the Holy Spirit remains with us or within us through all time.
It is through Him that I believe we become one with the triune God as Jesus prayed for us to become.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3 · Nov 25, 2008, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

classyT,
Actually I believe that the Holy Spirit remains with us or within us through all time.

Fred, scripture says that those who are saved do have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit forever.

John 14:16-18
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV