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Should a Christian allow those taking the lead in the Church such as Ministers be gay
I believe that no man or women should ever be allowed to serve as a minster or a leader of any church that represents God. Why?
To be frank, the Bible condemns homosexuality. No amount of verbal hocus-pocus can make scriptures like Leviticus 18:22 and Romans 1:26, 27 disappear.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Mankind has become very tolerant and will make all kinds of excuses and take the Bible and twist it to fit what they want it to, so as to do their own thing. They even go as far as saying that if a Christian is to love all people then they need to love the gay person. As a Christian myself, I do love all people including homosexuals, I though hate their behavior and their choice to go against God's laws. I am able to separate the person from their behavior or actions. God does not approve of homosexuality but He also does not approve of a Christian treating anyone harshly or to hate them in any way. I also feel that gays are welcome into the the congregation I attend, but they will be asked to respect God's house by obeying His commandments and laws about proper conduct. A gay person would not be serving as a leader in the congregation that I attend. How could they? They are suppose to be representing the supreme Sovereign of the universe. They can not serve God and Satan. The Bible forcefully admonishes, "O you lovers of God hate what is bad." Psalm 97:10 Homosexuals who want to serve God must do so on his terms, not there own.
If Leaders in the Congregation of God allows these gays to enter into a leader position and to try to teach others to do God's will and they themselves are not obedient to God's laws, and they approve of homosexuals becoming priest and leaders of their church, this is detestable in God's eyes and I truly feel sorry for the future generations. Gay or homosexual behavior is not approved by God nor should their conduct be welcomed in any place of worship of those claiming to serve God.
As a minister of God, I welcome all persons gay, straight, thieves, murders and sinners, but once you enter the congregation of God, all the conduct that God does not approve of will never be welcomed. We can not serve the God of the Bible and not obey his laws against homosexuality. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroy in Lots day. Why? Homosexuality was one of the reasons. One reason I don't go to the churches of this world is because of this very thing. As a Christian, Jesus Christ is the head of the Congregation. Those who take the lead in the congregation must become workers for the members of the congregation, under Christ. There are requirements that those taking the lead in the congregational affairs must adhere to. Notice what the Bible says these qualification are. Here is God's view on the matter.
I quote:
(1 Timothy 3:1-7) 3 That statement is faithful. If any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work. 2The overseer should therefore be irrepressible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 4a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; 5(if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God's congregation?) 6not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgment passed upon the Devil. 7Moreover, he should also have a fine testimony from people on the outside, in order that he might not fall into reproach and a snare of the Devil.
(Titus 1:5-9) 5For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might correct the things that were defective and might make appointments of older men in city after city, as I gave you orders; 6if there is any man free from accusation, a husband of one wife, having believing children that were not under a charge of debauchery nor unruly. 7For an overseer must be free from accusation as God's steward, not self-willed, not prone to wrath, not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, not greedy of dishonest gain, 8but hospitable, a lover of goodness, sound in mind, righteous, loyal, self-controlled, 9holding firmly to the faithful word as respects his [art of] teaching, that he may be able both to exhort by the teaching that is healthful and to reprove those who contradict.
1 Thess. 4:3-8: "This is what God wills ... that you abstain from fornication; that each one of you should know how to get possession of his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in covetous sexual appetite such as also those nations have which do not know God; that no one go to the point of harming and encroach upon the rights of his brother in this matter, because God is one who exacts punishment for all these things, just as we told you beforehand and also gave you a thorough witness. For God called us, not with allowance for uncleanness, but in connection with sanctification. So, then, the man that shows disregard is disregarding, not man, but God, who puts his holy spirit in you."
Eph. 5:5: "No fornicator or unclean person or greedy person-which means being an idolater-has any inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and of God."
People do change though and many who used to practice homosexuality are now Christians and serving God and obeying his laws. They learn God's way of Cleanliness and they have changed their ways to gain God's approval and with His approval comes many blessings. You see, God is love and he does forgive, if we choose to obey Him and do things his way, not the way of this world. God wants his followers and servants to be clean because He is clean. Anyone overseeing the Christian congregation therefore will have to be clean in God's eyes.
A gay person who is celebrate is not in sin, and can easily be a leader in the church, we have several in our church who are priests, Bishops and also hermits who are gay but have turned from the active life style.
If someone is celibate to the extent that they have absolutely no sex life then how are they gay...or even heterosexual? Wouldn't they just be 'celebate', or 'neutral'?
If someone is celibate to the extent that they have absolutely no sex life then how are they gay...or even heterosexual? Wouldn't they just be 'celebate', or 'neutral'?
The term generally used is sexual orientation. If I were to take your argument for a moment, and apply it to every young person who is a virgin, then the logical conclusion would be that every virgin is non-sexual. My point is that whether a person is homosexual or heterosexual has nothing to do with whether they are active but has everything to do with what they choose to be attracted to.
Now for this reason I disagree that the orientation is not a sin. Jesus spoke a great deal about our orientation in Matthew Chapter 5:
Matt 5:21-30
21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder,' and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you are thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
NKJV
Notice that it is not the act which is considered a sin, but rather Jesus tells us that it is what is first in our heart - our orientation. For this reason, I would take the position that a person needs to deal with that orientation first in order to be a leader in the church.
One's orientation drives one's attraction. If one is not oriented to desire something, one does not desire it. Scripture describes orientation as more than just desires but speaks of these as desires of your heart, what motivates/excites your innermost being.
As for attraction or orientation being a choice, you are now dealing with opinion. There is no scientific basis for stating that it is not a choice, but scripture does speak to this matter. Scripture tells us that certain desires of our hearts are sinful and need to be changed, for example:
Acts 8:21-22
22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
NKJV
I did a study on this a number of years ago, and due to the amount that scripture has to say regarding our orientation, it would be different to go through it on a Q&A forum, but suffice it to say that God would not tell us to change our orientation and then make it impossible. Can homosexuals become heterosexual? Again, let's look to scripture for that answer:
1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV
So since we are speaking about the church, direction for what to do in this matter must be scripturally based.
Justifies why many don't belong to churches / groups who judge so ignorantly.
They have their own relationships.
Greetings, the posted question has produced much interest on both sides of this matter and having done some research, I found the following websites that one should read thoroughly for a better understanding of this topic matter (don't just look at the links, see what they are actually saying). I do believe that when someone "comes out" to another, it is already painful for them to do so but to want to serve a Higher Calling that comes from God is truly not for our human judgment. Can you only imagine a person who is scorned, spat upon, whipped and beaten, discriminated, ridiculed, fired from their jobs, laughed at, picked on, ostracized by society, kicked out of the house, many times by their own parents just for being gay or lesbian, having the courage to reach out to another in their time of need and especially to still want to serve the Lord? I can only imagine that is very hard and if we are to truly "Love One Another" as Jesus said we should do, we should do so to literally everyone, without any reservations, since He never qualified His statement with " ... except for gays and lesbians ... ". Therefore, a friend should never be abandoned nor should his or her higher spiritual calling. Their pain should never be made worse by rubbing their wound with little misunderstood Biblical words that act as alcohol on their pain. Let's see what, in effect, scholars actually say about what those passages that seem to excoriate homosexuals are actually saying.
It is easy, I would imagine, for those who wish to belittle others to say that they should change, but can one really change something that science now says is not a matter of choice? It would be very difficult, in effect. The only "choice" I see here is a person's willful choice to be promiscuous. Promiscuity is never right for both heterosexuals or homosexuals in the eyes of God. That is what is truly sinful in His eyes. Therefore, people should be in a fully committed, loving relationship to avoid the temptation. However, people, in their humanity, are people with an apparent innate need and given desire for sexual expression. Few words, if any, can literally change that desire any more than yelling at a young person to not engage in sexual activity when their hormones are raging. Perhaps some would be stronger than others, but that unfortunately, would still not remove their basic biological need for the expression as all are inherently born with, with few exceptions let's face it. Therefore let's all follow Jesus' exemplary words, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Let's first work on removing heterosexual desire as in lusting or coveting a neighbor's spouse or another within our own community before we ask those of the gay or lesbian orientation to do the same. When we can successfully accomplish that task within our own, we can feel free to call ourselves "masters" of change and can feel free to point the finger at others who are of a different lifestyle and say to them that they are wrong in what they do.
The following websites should certainly peak the interest of everyone who has ever battled with this question and has searched for answers and has wanted to see what scholars, scientists and clergy have to say.
"The Six Bible Passages Used To Condemn Homosexuals", is MUST reading and also contains very interesting links at the bottom of the page. Six Bible Passages
For those more acclimated to higher learning, there is this website that should be read all the way through, especially to see what the American Psychological Assn., the AMA, the American Psychiatric Assn. and the National Assn. of Social Workers have to say about this important matter from a learned, professional standpoint: Did You Ever Wonder
Actually the studies quoted as saying that homosexuality is not a matter of choice have all been discredited - sloppy methodology.
The second point that I would like to address is that I find that people on both side4s of the issue try to make this sin some sort of special sin. In reality it isn't. The sin of homosexuality is no worse a sin than other sexual sins, or indeed other sins in general. Homosexuals should therefore not be treated worse than other people - Romans 3:23 says that we have all false short of the glory of God, and we are all sinners. Those who have received Christ as Saviour are sinner saved by grace, homosexuality or not.
That being said, I would not expect any more from a person in dealing with the sin of homosexuality than I would from a person who was involved in a sin of pornography, or hypersexuality - they are all sins, and for those who profess to be Christians, we called to submit our lives to Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to work on us to change us, just as those in the church in Corinth were changed from their sinful ways, including homosexuality. Just because a sin may be hard to deal with is not a good reason scripturally to avoid dealing with it head on.
The saddest thing is that so many see the Word of God as hateful, instead of the love letter for living for God. He only wants His best for us, which is very often contrary to our flesh. If we will surrender our way of thinking to His was of things we will choose His will over ours every time.
According to what has been written, homosexuality is grounds to exclude him from leading a ministry, then a minister must be without sin to lead? If all sin is equal, where do you find perfection among not perfect humanity to lead? Even among the saved, are they deemed perfect, or without sin? How can they be more perfct than a celibate gay man, who gives his life to his God?
That being said, I would not expect any more from a person in dealing with the sin of homosexuality than I would from a person who was involved in a sin of pornography, or hypersexuality - they are all sins, and for those who profess to be Christians, we called to submit our lives to Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to work on us to change us, just as those in the church in Corinth were changed from their sinful ways, including homosexuality. Just because a sin may be hard to deal with is not a good reason scripturally to avoid dealing with it head on.
Your speaking as if being a homosexual is souly a "choice". I am not gay but people I know that are, do not feel that it was a choice to be gay. They feel attracted to their same sex just like heterosexual people are attracted to people of the opposite sex. Its not like they can just wake up one morning and say, "I'm going to stop having feelings like I do for my boyfriend or girlfriend because its wrong in the eyes of God." Its not a choice you can just decide to stop doing. These people are not harming anyone by loving someone of the same sex. I'm sorry but I just can't understand how some christians see it as a choice unless they are the ones that believe the stuff in the bible. The bible was written by man centuries after Jesus's death. Don't you think their own views and ideas would be included in their writings? The fact that the bible was written by man is one of the main reasons I can't believe in it. Homosexuality was looked on in disgust back in those days because it was different from the norm. Don't you think that would reflect in some of the writings?
Exactly! No one, literally no person is without sin in this world. That much is known. In my opinion, those who are celibate and wish to serve the Lord should be allowed. However, there is inequity about that, inasmuch as some Protestant religions allow their ministers to marry, therefore, they are not celibate and can still serve the Lord. So, a dichotomy exists here.
The sad thing concerning gay people is that throughout history so many have been killed by those who felt somehow superior to them and used inept Biblical passages to try to justify their horrendous deeds. God does not allow murder according to His Sixth Commandment. But for those so-called murder-minded "Christians" (Actually they are without God. Remember The Inquisition?) presumably saying that they would do these things to gays, and I know many have heard the stomach-turning and chilling phrase "Kill a queer for Christ", they are trying to justify murder, perhaps as a way to try to prove or make others believe they themselves are not gay, when in effect, who knows? Or they might not be able to come to terms with it. Yet, they must realize that Jesus, in His Loving Compassion, never spoke about homosexuality nor condemned it in the Bible. He was silent about it. That much is known and we must remember that it is by His blood that we are Saved. However, some people with an agenda of hate will always try to justify their horrific acts through some other means and even try to tie their harmful behavior to other inappropriate passages but it falls short of the truth about our Loving Heavenly Father Jesus Christ who had a policy of inclusion of everyone. He even sat at the table with thieves.
In the case of Mary Magdalene (who later became a saint), a sinner whom Jesus had cast out seven devils, Jesus did not ask her to change her sexual orientation, which was obviously heterosexual, but rather to "go and sin no more", to quit living a promiscuous lifestyle. This is a lesson all should learn about trying to "change" a person from what he or she is or the orientation they are born with. So, quit being promiscuous and serve the Lord is His message and it applies to ALL. It worked in the case of Mary Magdalene! His message should also have applied to the Catholic Church and its priests but we all know how unfortunate that turned out as the matter has been widely publicized. Was it their innate biological desire that led them to do what they did? Was it simply turning their back from God? Some were even still serving in the clergy until caught. But we cannot judge these people. God does, in His own time, in His own way as is appropriate.
Will we ever know why those who choose to serve the Lord also have biological needs and desires as ordinary humans do? It is difficult to be chaste and still serve the Lord but with the allowance of marriage in the clergy, for some, and even raising a family (requiring a sexual act), especially when a priest cannot do so nor a nun, it is quite out of line to expect others of a different orientation to refrain from expressing a basic biological need. Equalize this mandate for ALL or for none in order to be equitable to all those who wish to serve the Lord.
According to what has been written, homosexuality is grounds to exclude him from leading a ministry, then a minister must be without sin to lead? If all sin is equal, where do you find perfection among not perfect humanity to lead? Even among the saved, are they deemed perfect, or without sin? How can they be more perfct than a celibate gay man, who gives his life to his God?
Just to note that my recent reply was to this posting.
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