The Scriptures say that the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) and that if we don't hear the Church (Matt 18:17) we should be treated as heathen.

Yet some people say we should neglect the Church and listen to Scripture alone?

Why, if doing so is to disobey Scripture?

N0help4u

Yeah I understand what you mean.
When Biblical peoples names were changed like Abram and Paul the name has a significant meaning but I don't see where it means he IS the rock in the sense of taking over Jesus being the rock and I don't see it as meaning any denomination either.

Galveston1

The words in the Greek tell the story.

Matt 16:18
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,(apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than 3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:
KJV-- Peter, rock. Compare 2786.) and upon this rock (4073 petra (pet'-ra);
feminine of the same as 4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively):
KJV-- rock.I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(KJV)

The words in the parenthesis is the definition of the Greek word used (Strong's Concordance) Petrus (Peter) is piece of rock: Petra (this rock) is a massive rock. Don't confuse the two.

Galveston1

It impossible that the bread and wine of the Eucharist can be literal BECAUSE at the time He said "This is my body, this is my blood" His body was still intact and alive and His blood was still in His veins. Such being the case, to say His statement was literal is obviously wrong. Besides, the Bible specifically forbids the eating of blood under any circumstaces, even animal blood.

Galveston1

Before you can have a succession, there must be a first, so consider the following:

Matt 23:9-12
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
(KJV)

Jesus reprimanded His Apostles for trying to place them in a position above others. The Pope claims to be THE vicar of Christ, yet the Bible teaches that the CHURCH is the body (vicar) of Christ, of which all followers of Christ are members.

vs 9 above: The Pope is called THE holy father in contidiction of this verse.


1 Tim 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
(KJV)

Peter was a married man.

When Paul wrote his lettere from Rome, he named several believers that were also in Rome, and he did not mention Peter even once. Is it reasonable to think that if Peter was there, Paul would have mentioned him, and especially if Peter was the first Pope?

And finally, what resemblance to the church described in the early chapters of Acts, do you see in the Roman Catholic Church?

N0help4u

Exactly why I believe my denominational preference is closer to THE Church.

sndbay

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Point of Fact: Jesus say Simon/Peter is blessed because he was not revealed the truth of who Jesus was by Man=flesh and blood but by the Father in heaven

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Point of Fact : note the ( , ) after Peter, and upon this rock (what rock? The Rock Jesus, who he had just had revealed to him by the Father. The church is built upon the foundation/Rock of Jesus.
I have the Strong Concordance and the Greek /Hebrew to refer..But one still has to Open their mind to hearing God.

N0help4u

at any rate Jesus is the rock, Peter is a piece of the rock and we are all a part of the church,
A study on the cornerstone and the verses on us all being a part of the body shows that.

sndbay

Point of facts are true... As shown below each word has been locked in by safe keeping # This safe keeping is called the Massorah. The verse: Matthew 16:18 And 1161 I say 3004 also 2504 unto thee 4671, That 3754 thou 4771 art 1488 Peter 4074, and 2532 upon 1909 this 5026 rock 4073 I will build 3618 my 3450 church 1577; and 2532 the gates 4439 of hell 86 shall 2729 0 not 3756 prevail against 2729 it 846.

4073 Petra = cliff, ledge, entirely

4074 Petros = piece of rock

1 Corinthians 10:4 And 2532 did 4095 0 all 3956 drink 4095 the same 846 spiritual 4152 drink 4188: for 1063 they drank 4095 of 1537 that spiritual 4152 Rock 4073 that followed them 190 : and 1161 that Rock 4073 was 2258 Christ 5547.

Point of Fact: The Rock was Jesus

De Maria

I want to thank all of you for such a wonderful and polite discussion. I hope it will be ongoing when I return, God willing, in eight days.

I'll contribute a little bit before I leave.

De Maria

Sure:
These are books:
Founding Of Christendom - A History Of Christendom, Vol. 1
Building Of Christendom - A History Of Christendom, Vol. 2
Glory Of Christendom - A History Of Christendom, Vol. 3
Cleaving Of Christendom - A History Of Christendom, Vol. 4

This is a website with a summary of Church History:
http://www.marianland.com/truech01.html

thanks for the interest.

Sincerely,

De Maria