I was once told via an indirect, that there were Christians who expected to be saved by riding on the backs of those who heeded Jesus' instructions to preach the Gospel. I have also observed many Christians literally breaking their necks to be in good standing with God by preaching, looking down on those who are not preaching as much regardless of the reasons, and considering them in danger of losing their lives via God's wrath. These very Christians then speak about how Jesus died for our sins and that we gain life eternal through faith in that sacrifice. So there seems to be a certain tension based on misunderstanding betrween works and faith which is in need of clarification. Any comments?
It appears that he either has not yet been shown the full truths of the Christian faith, or that he is not ready to accept them.
It is not possible to force the gift on someone.
Truth is, that man should be told that Christ is ready to accept him just as he is.
How is it not possible to force someone?
I agree that he should be told that God will accept him with all his inherited faults. Yet, he should also be told that a change of conduct is required as a show of respect and apreciation in order for him to gain life.
The following scriptures tell us that the willful practice of sin leads to death.
Ezekiel 33
18"Suppose someone who is godly stops doing what is right. And he does what is evil. Then he will die because of it. 19But suppose a sinful person turns away from the evil things he has done. And he does what is fair and right. Then he will live by doing that. NIRV
Romans 6:
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Starman, this gets very complex, yet at the same time God is really not complex at all. God will not force His will on someone.
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I agree that he should be told that God will accept him with all his inherited faults. Yet, he should also be told that a change of conduct is required as a show of respect and apreciation in order for him to gain life.
That is true. I don't believe in sugar coating things. I also understand that man in their inherit faults cannot do the change on his own. This is why, Jesus, in the Bible states that He will send a Helper when he dies. This Helper is the Holy Spirit which indwells in a believer that teaches, guides, convicts and shows the way. We will still fall at times, bc again, we can go against this nudging of the Holy Spirit. But, as I mentioned in an earlier posts, that nudging can be very strong.
Starman, this gets very complex, yet at the same time God is really not complex at all. God will not force His will on someone.
Certainly, I agree that God will not force anyone to accept eternal life.
But his will will be done on earth after God forces the governments from power and forces Satan and his demons into oblivion as the book of Revelations tells us.
Revelation 19
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[e] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. NKJV
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That is true. I don't believe in sugar coating things. I also understand that man in their inherit faults cannot do the change on his own. This is why, Jesus, in the Bible states that He will send a Helper when he dies. This Helper is the Holy Spirit which indwells in a believer that teaches, guides, convicts and shows the way. We will still fall at times, bc again, we can go against this nudging of the Holy Spirit. But, as I mentioned in an earlier posts, that nudging can be very strong.
True, without God's holy spirit which is sent as a helper Christians would not be able to serve God as well as they do.
John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. NKJV
jduke44 said:
I don't expect anyone to totally understand but the reason why I put this in is bc the statement "once saved always saved" became true to me then. The more I tried to walk away the more I was drawn to having to hold on to my faith.
I understand this...but you still had a choice...the drawing was there, but you were not forced to hold onto your faith, you chose to. I am so glad you did.
But there have been others in similar situations that chose not to hold on, and kept resisting the 'drawing' and then confessed they no longer believed in God.
Now some will say 'they were never 'saved' in the first place'. But God will not force us to 'get saved', and He will not force us to 'stay saved'. Even Christians still have freedom of choice. He will by His Holy Spirit keep drawing us back, but there will be some who are weak in faith, or draw away of their own lusts and enticed.... fall away.
You asked 'where would I go” some do have a place to go, wherever their lust is drawing them to. Not all are as strong in faith, and are blessed with a good wife as you are, not all can resist the temptation to quit the faith.
We have all been tested in this area most of us many times.
The topic of fiath vs works is always a little confusing no matter how much we study or learn. The problem is that they are both separate from one another but they can't be disconnected from each other.
We are saved(justified, made righteous) by the blood of Jesus Christ as a sacrifice and ransom made for us. He did it all. We did nothing. That's the objective and eternal truth.
Subjectively, even though He died also on behalf of the "whole world", not everyone is going to trust God to have done this for them out of His love for all. For whatever reason these others won't trust God's love to do right for them. In real essence, they reject Him and His free gift of being saved from the final judgement against their sins.
When it comes to "good works", these are a result and the cause of salvation. When we enter the kingdom of God through faith we are spiritually changed and become "new". As a part of this newness is the will to walk with God Who saved us and gives us all things in Christ. As Jesus explained about good works:
Luke 6:43-45
43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart.
NIV
These good works will be there. The more we walk with God according to His Word, the more good works we will do and the less "bad" works we will do. But it is a matter of maturity or growth. And that's what gets confusing. Sometimes Christians want to do their own works for God because they haven't understood the greatness of God's salvation OR they don't want to be fully beholden to God for their salvation. So they revert to works of their own flesh rather than seek what God wants them to be doing.
Rom 4:1-8
4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about — but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
NIV
Each will have to give account of themselves: either God's perfect gift of righteousness or dependence on our own.......and no boasting over anyone else since we each have salvation as a gift from God and not of ourselves.
Yes, Salvation is a gift...but with any gift, we can choose to discard it or reject it. Neither the Church nor the Bible teach explicitly how we might discard or reject it, but nonetheless, we can.
god's work in jesus' dying in the flesh as an atonement for sin is finished, and jesus even said so himself, in his last words 'it is finished'. so if it's finished, how can someone make it not finished, by doing something wrong? they cannot. as far as 'discarding' that atonement, it would be like denying some truth, which is a lie.
what the question becomes, then, is what work do we have to accomplish, that results from our belief in that truth of atonement? some would say nothing, just sit back and ride the 'saved' train. others would say, hey, do whatever you can to show god you're appreciative. and others would do works, then berate someone else for not accomplishing what they themselves have.
so i ask, in what authority do you do your works? do you think because you do works, they're automatically accepted by god?
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
how dare him! they were doing what they thought was good! they probably did more than the christians around them. they probably did these works because they believed in the atonement. they certainly weren't trying to do them for satan, or some other 'god'. you may say, 'their heart wasn't right'. how do you know? is your heart right when you do works... do you judge them?
so why didn't the 'saved' train help these people? why weren't they on their way to heaven, plus some treasures in heaven for all their good works? aren't you on the same path as they? why not? why won't jesus say that to you? is it because this passage doesn't mention everyone, and you think you're one of the safe ones? this passage says many
will say to me... so odds are you're one of the many. what can you do to avoid their fate? exactly what they will have to do, when jesus tells them their problem.
this passage seems kinda cool, like jesus is dissing the sinners. but didn't he tell the pharisees what was their problem? he didn't just say, 'whateva' to them. he let them know their condition. when you come to jesus to see your condition, he'll show you. then,
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.
when this begins to happen to you, your heart will start to purify. it's done by the power of the holy spirit, that jesus promised to send.
so jesus, even on earth, was completing his work of salvation. he gave us a way to get purified. how could we ever purify ourselves? by our good works? by our believing in the atonement? you saw how jesus spoke to the people doing that.
now works, i'm not sure from where they will proceed, either by jesus telling you what to do, or as a result of your purified heart being in alignment with jesus' will. but you cannot skip the purification step. that step is the work we need to be doing. not good works for the kingdom. not until we prioritize our efforts. if we fail in our work of purity, thanks to the atonement, we're not cast out forever. we can continue in repentance of our fall, and begin where we left off.
stop thinking of jesus' atonement as complete for our salvation, and start thinking of it as an ongoing process of purity. if not, then our fate is as the workers of good that jesus cast out. they may have thought they were through, but they were wrong.
Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his
Jesus said the works that I do shall ye do and greater works shall ye do because I go to My Father. He sent the Holy Spirit to live in us and lead, guide, teach and comfort us.
Jesus went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil.
Doing good: He taught the gospel of salvation, He warned people to repent and cast out devils, He raised the dead among other things; those are the works we are to do through the leading and power of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said: All authority in heaven and earth are given to Me, therefore go in My Name…..We have authority in the Name of Jesus and the anointing that was on Jesus and the faith of Jesus, patience of Jesus and the compassion of Jesus…these are called the fruit of the spirit.
We also have the Gifts of the Spirit, the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, working of miracles and the gifts of healings…….
We do not work to keep our salvation, or to impress God, or to ‘finish’ what Jesus started, we who believe are saved from the wrath to come…the tribulations. We do not have to do anything more to ‘obtain’ salvation except believe the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God and confess Him as Lord.
Because Hell is a real place and people are going there everyday, we should try to reach as many as possible to give them a chance to receive Jesus.
Many people are suffering…we should do all we can to help them in whatever way we can.
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