I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law. What say you?
I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law. What say you?
From what I understand we, as Gentiles, should have the Law written on our hearts. The law is what made man guilty of sin by causing him to see "sin" according to God's measurement of a "right standing" with Him. Also, we can not do away with the Law or the Old Testament's teachings since there are things that must first be fulfilled. (Luke 24:44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.")
Jesus would often refer to the Old Testament when asked questions about what he thought. When He was asked by someone what they must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus replied by asking the man, what does the Law of Moses say.
Also, when He was asked what the greatest commandment was, He once again quoted scripture from the Old Testament Law.
The Law forced man to recognize "sin" . Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.(20) Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. (21) But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. Romans 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. (28)
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Here Paul is writing this message after Jesus had already returned to Heaven. We are not to do away with the Law but keep it.
Romans 3:31 - Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Also, I think this verse sums it up. (John 1:17 - For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.)
The Law condemns us as sinners, Christ was and is the "answer" to our sin problem. They go hand-n-hand. Hope this was not confusing! Rita
I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law. What say you?
donn -
this is clearly an interest of yours because I have heard you mention this before. With that in mind, I am personally eager to understand this statement of Christ better. I hope to be able to answer this in greater detail over the next few days. Allow me to pose a few questions to stir the question up a little more.
First off, how I would try to answer this question is by observing the context in which Jesus made this statement. Who was his audience? Why did he make this statement? Were people thinking that his teaching was so radical that it appeared he was trying to destroy the Old Testament?
Secondly, what did Jesus mean when he said that he came to fulfill the law and not to abolish it? We are quick to see that he didn't abolish it but what is meant by fulfill it?
Thirdly, donn, the apparent issue before you if you have concluded that the law is still in effect, is that all of the law is in effect. That means if your neighbor blasphemes God you are to stone him. If you were to catch someone working on the Sabbath, you are to stone him. Some people prefer to pick and choose which laws are observable now but the law was given as one entire body, to be observed by the nation of Israel in its entirety...not just the laws concerning foods and clothing, but the moral laws like stoning people guilty of breaking the laws.
I'm sympathetic to your question so don't think that I am trying to make you feel bad about posting it. I personally do not think that the law is in effect for Gentiles at all. I do think that the law is in effect for the Jews but I would want to clarify why I think that it is and in what sense it is.
But why don't you provide some additional comments relating to what I have posted here if you don't mind. I will continue to research this and come back.
Guess I did not make myself clear in my original post. I am strictly talking about the law of Moses or the ten commandments All other laws seem to me to have been made by man to subdue man. But then again i could be wrong. I am still a babe in the Lord. A mere mortal who sins every day. But under grace I have forgiveness for my sins.
The Bible says Moses laws is now summed up by Love one another and put God first.
If you look at each one of the 10 commandments it is clear that if you love one another and put God first there is no way you can break any one of them
Gal. is talking about the do's and don'ts laws that we have mentioned. I do believe God made those laws as well because people back then didn't have the knowledge of food poisoning and how diseases are spread. God also gave them as a significance of the importance of purity like not mixing fabrics.
What say I?
As I understand the passage that follows we ARE to obey the Law of the 10 Commandments and it is by the grace of God that we are forgiven when we sin and fail in we are repentant and ask for forgiveness.
Matthew 5: 17. "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.
18. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.
19. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20. "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.
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It IS the whole passage that needs to be understood not just the first part of it. Peace and kindness,
Fred
Guess I did not make myself clear in my original post. I am strictly talking about the law of Moses or the ten commandments All other laws seem to me to have been made by man to subdue man. But then again i could be wrong. I am still a babe in the Lord. A mere mortal who sins every day. But under grace I have forgiveness for my sins.
Hey again, Donn. I'm a little unclear about your clarification. To avoid confusion, let's assume we are only talking about the Law of Moses (which included the 10 commandments). The Law of Moses is a very extensive series of laws that prescribe how Israel was to live: their personal lives in relationship to one another, their religious life as it related to the temple, etc. The entire body of laws is better known as the Law of Moses. Included in that law are prescribed ways to sacrifice, laws about morality and what to do when someone has broken them, etc.
Donn, when Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it, he meant the Law of Moses. As I asked in my earlier post, what did Jesus mean by fulfill? My take is that the law had built into it a certain amount of obsolescence. For example, the sacrifices and the priestly system are described in Hebrews as being the shadow of the things to come. But now that the embodiment of this sacrificial and priestly system has been fulfilled in Christ (since he is both the sacrifice for sin and the great high priest), there is no longer a need to go on sacrificing.
As I look at the context of Matthew 5, a few things come to mind as I consider what Jesus said. He has just finished speaking of the Beatitudes. He then moves to talking about being Salt and Light. When he finishes talking about not abolishing the law but fulfilling it, he goes on to say "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." What I think Jesus is doing is in this section is making a point that the Pharisees have had a very minimal view of the Old Testament law. Their practice of observing the commandments amounted to what Jesus calls a "relaxing of the commandments." They made it "easy" to be a religious person because their vision of righteousness was attainable. But the Commandments of God—rightly understood—forced people to see that real goodness and righteousness was so much more difficult to practice because we are morally broken people. That is why Jesus contrasts the teachings of the Pharisees with true righteousness, because they had really confused the real righteousness of God with their own teaching. And if you were to observe their teaching, you would be "righteous." But Jesus says to the crowd that if their righteousness did not surpass that of the Pharisees, they will never enter the kingdom of God. The righteousness Jesus was talking about was an authentic righteousness; one that truly feared God and kept his law out of a respect and admiration for God—and kept the law not to obtain a righteousness of his own but out of his commitment to follow the Lord.
I still haven't even addressed what abolish meant but this is just some of my thoughts so far.
. I personally do not think that the law is in effect for Gentiles at all. I do think that the law is in effect for the Jews but I would want to clarify why I think that it is and in what sense it is.
.
Jakester,
This is am important issue. I trust the Gentiles who are Ham's lineage, and his son Canaan, were the nations of Egypt that had difference ordinances that God was aware of according to (Lev 18:3)But I also trust what God said about making the Gentile clean and we are not to call them unclean. It was such an important fact about "man" in Acts 10:28..and not about food being clean.
The meaning and facts concerning what are ordinances, statutes, law, and the commandments should be defined. I trust, if everyone were taught the individual meaning, they might look at what is meant in scripture pertaining to law in a sightly different way.
The ordinances of the altar were changed by the blood of Christ.( refer: Eze 43:18) (refer: Col 2:14 )
If the meaning was established and understood, I trust what Hebrews 9:9-10 is saying about what was would be better recognized as a major difference to what was and is today refer: 9what was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Hebrews 9:11-12 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].
And my belief in law, is that the LAW of Faith is what we are to accept and boast in joy of heart. (Roman 3:27)(Romans 3:28)What was the law of sin (Lev 7:37) brings us to Christ... But if someone wants to say they are a sinner and not justified in Christ then they are a transgresseth, who is under the law of sin, and not in Christ. (1 John 3:4)
Gal3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
The only time you have left the schoolmaster of the law, is when you are begotten again in Christ Begotten in HIS image of righteousness which was the likeness of Holy Spirit dwells in us.
No longer begotten of man... It is my understanding that Christ came so that we can follow HIM and be begotten again, being born again of the spirit ](Gal 4:33), unto a new man (Col 3:10). The newness of life we are dead in Christ by baptism, thus buried and able to raise has HE did in the glory of the Father (Romans 6:4)
I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Absolutely true Jesus did fulfil the law. Just as He and John fulfil all righteousness in baptism.
According to what is written it is now our turn to fulfil not lust of the flesh but put on Christ Jesus in righteousness. (Gal5:7)
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law.
Those no longer under the law of sin "if" they are walking in the spirit of Christ. (Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. )
That does not mean the law of sin is no longer a schoolmaster to others, because they have the law to bring them unto Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
What say you?
~in Christ we have the Law of Faith as children of God
Worthyness of Christ to set us free from sin, and wash us clean of sin. (do you believe or hold stedfast to "Faith in Christ"
Eph 4:4-7 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Peace and kindness,
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